Cutting Points

First and foremost it can only be done IF all 4 channels in the forearm piece [the female part of the FS] are cut exactly the same length and depth. If one is off you may never get all 4 lined up without any additional manipulation on the point itself.

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First and foremost, let me say most of your cues define elegance for me. It would be impossible to remove a detail, nor in most cases add one, and have the cue be any better either way. (Within its own concept).

But i've been puzzling about your statement above, and trying to figure out if it is even possible to put together a full splice without that condition holding, unless the fabricator is seriously bending the prongs on the mating points.

Others have contacted me by PM and it is fairly clear the notion of moving a full splice rough blank to center might not be fully appreciated. You can't do it by the OD, (except a rough 1st approximation). Make your best guess, take a cut and see if the points like up, and then move down to the butt end, and take another cut, and see if the space between the points at that end is the same the whole way 'round the butt.

If the space between points is not the exact same, then the blank is not centered on the joint. So move that end, informed by the forearm end as well. (First 2 cuts, 1 at each end) will tell if the axis of the joint is askew to to the current axis of rotation, or parallel to it but off center. Then make a good guess about how far to shift each end, and take another skim cut. Within about 3 iterations it should be running true. But you will never know if a blank is running true to its own center if you can't inspect and manipulate both ends.

I get the impression that people dial the forearm end in. That one is obvious. But then if the next pass, the points are stairstep, they blame the blank. In reality they don't know if it was the blank if both ends were not dialed in. Most likely in a situation like that, the center or the blank is skewed to the center of lathe rotation. You can tweak one end to "fix" it, but really it keeps getting worse with each succeeding cut and change at that end because the wrong end is being moved the wrong direction.. Both ends of the joint have to be moved dead on axial with the lathe rotational axis.

Personally, i find it easy to do with a couple 4 jaws, one at each end as described in earlier post. Then again, there's a lot of chucks on hand here.



Above are cue blanks, below are desk legs, same difference.

CavinTan said:

How do you make or cut V grooves / pointers into a forearm without an A joint?

meaning to say, im using a full 30" maple core through the whole cue. wouldn't the cutter cut into the core behind the forearm?

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Hi,

Below are examples of a procedure I developed when I had the same question your are asking now. Here is how I did it some years ago. Over time I have super refined the technique's procedures and have upgraded to a German milling machine and stopped using that home made point cutting set up in these pics. I also changed to mitered veneers. No recent pics but this should give you the idea.

By glueing the forearm and a sacrificial to the dowel first and tapering the blank to .950 nose between centers before cutting the grooves with the 3" sacrificial part at the A Joint area. Because the cutter dives half way into the dowel. After cutting each groove I rotate the groove to the 0 position and and fill the bottom of the groove with high psi epoxy after gluing and clamping the points. The epoxy is over 20 times the tensile strength of the maple dowel. Cutting a four point cue requires the blank to remain in the fixture for 4 days to allow setting of the epoxy. After curing, the sacrificial is turned down and the cored handle and or rings are assembled on the dowel that was returned to .748 in in this area where the sacrificial was attached.

The a joint area becomes the strongest part of the dowel.

I am able to complete a stable assembly of the entire cue when the nose is at .950. Because the centers never change, I never have to shim the cue to adjust the point heights. They the don't move in the last .100 of tapering at all.

This takes much longer and has many more steps then doing a simple A-Joint. In the end with the center dowel, the cue never warps. In an A -Joint cue, if the handle or the forearm moves at any time, you loose the farm and the cue is junk. Cuemakers who have a cue warp, always say something about blaming the wood. Of coarse they would be right! Full core CMs never worry or lose sleep because they don't have to defend a warped butt. JMHO.

Some progress pics to review:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=295385

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=318193

Rick

Notice: I am moving to Las Vegas next Saturday where my shop equipment has been in storage. I will be building out my new shop and should be ready to take custom orders by October.

Ssonerai said:

First and foremost, let me say most of your cues define elegance for me. It would be impossible to remove a detail, nor in most cases add one, and have the cue be any better either way. (Within its own concept).

But i've been puzzling about your statement above, and trying to figure out if it is even possible to put together a full splice without that condition holding, unless the fabricator is seriously bending the prongs on the mating points.

Others have contacted me by PM and it is fairly clear the notion of moving a full splice rough blank to center might not be fully appreciated. You can't do it by the OD, (except a rough 1st approximation). Make your best guess, take a cut and see if the points like up, and then move down to the butt end, and take another cut, and see if the space between the points at that end is the same the whole way 'round the butt.

If the space between points is not the exact same, then the blank is not centered on the joint. So move that end, informed by the forearm end as well. (First 2 cuts, 1 at each end) will tell if the axis of the joint is askew to to the current axis of rotation, or parallel to it but off center. Then make a good guess about how far to shift each end, and take another skim cut. Within about 3 iterations it should be running true. But you will never know if a blank is running true to its own center if you can't inspect and manipulate both ends.

I get the impression that people dial the forearm end in. That one is obvious. But then if the next pass, the points are stairstep, they blame the blank. In reality they don't know if it was the blank if both ends were not dialed in. Most likely in a situation like that, the center or the blank is skewed to the center of lathe rotation. You can tweak one end to "fix" it, but really it keeps getting worse with each succeeding cut and change at that end because the wrong end is being moved the wrong direction.. Both ends of the joint have to be moved dead on axial with the lathe rotational axis.

Personally, i find it easy to do with a couple 4 jaws, one at each end as described in earlier post. Then again, there's a lot of chucks on hand here.

Above are cue blanks, below are desk legs, same difference.

Click to expand...

Nice looking work. What species of wood are the forearm blanks shown with the bocote butts? What web thickness are you cutting the forearms to?

Thanks much for the compliment!

What species of wood are the forearm blanks shown with the bocote butts?

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Curly pyinma.
Mentioned in another thread that it is somewhat disappointing. The curl is spectacular 360° around, but quickly turns a dark carmel color and contrast is lost from a distance. I was buying a load of ash and looking for wood for some legs for a lady's desk. The lumber yard had a nice size order of Pyinma imported & cut, but the sawyer mis-understood directions and turned it all into 2" x 2" turning blanks x about 6' lengths. Should have bought more "If i had only known". Still a couple pieces in the loft.

I'm a hobbyist (though sold 2 sneakys completed from the batch of blanks & previously a couple non-wrap merry widows.) My first full splices were actually for the faceted desk legs, then decided why not make some butt blanks after getting a poor full splice cue blank from a Florida dealer. So to answer your Q, the fins are thin enough to fit well in an end cut at the Vee intersection from a tinch more than the bandsaw thickness which IIRC is around a .030 kerf, So probably .060 range. Guests here for a couple days but will try to measure a blank tomorrow.

I posted the splice pix so my comments about centering blanks was not perceived as being totally naive or un-practiced. (Might still have some mistaken ideas about cues as this is a learning thing for me, but not totally uninformed about splices, lol)

smt

Ssonerai said:

Thanks much for the compliment!



Curly pyinma.
Mentioned in another thread that it is somewhat disappointing. The curl is spectacular 360° around, but quickly turns a dark carmel color and contrast is lost from a distance. I was buying a load of ash and looking for wood for some legs for a lady's desk. The lumber yard had a nice size order of Pyinma imported & cut, but the sawyer mis-understood directions and turned it all into 2" x 2" turning blanks x about 6' lengths. Should have bought more "If i had only known". Still a couple pieces in the loft.

I'm a hobbyist (though sold 2 sneakys completed from the batch of blanks & previously a couple non-wrap merry widows.) My first full splices were actually for the faceted desk legs, then decided why not make some butt blanks after getting a poor full splice cue blank from a Florida dealer. So to answer your Q, the fins are thin enough to fit well in an end cut at the Vee intersection from a tinch more than the bandsaw thickness which IIRC is around a .030 kerf, So probably .060 range. Guests here for a couple days but will try to measure a blank tomorrow.

I posted the splice pix so my comments about centering blanks was not perceived as being totally naive or un-practiced. (Might still have some mistaken ideas about cues as this is a learning thing for me, but not totally uninformed about splices, lol)

smt

Click to expand...

I have a 63lb burl from a related ornamental “crepe Myrtle”....very similar to Birdseye and yes it does darken


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ssonerai said:

Thanks much for the compliment!



Curly pyinma.
Mentioned in another thread that it is somewhat disappointing. The curl is spectacular 360° around, but quickly turns a dark carmel color and contrast is lost from a distance. I was buying a load of ash and looking for wood for some legs for a lady's desk. The lumber yard had a nice size order of Pyinma imported & cut, but the sawyer mis-understood directions and turned it all into 2" x 2" turning blanks x about 6' lengths. Should have bought more "If i had only known". Still a couple pieces in the loft.

I'm a hobbyist (though sold 2 sneakys completed from the batch of blanks & previously a couple non-wrap merry widows.) My first full splices were actually for the faceted desk legs, then decided why not make some butt blanks after getting a poor full splice cue blank from a Florida dealer. So to answer your Q, the fins are thin enough to fit well in an end cut at the Vee intersection from a tinch more than the bandsaw thickness which IIRC is around a .030 kerf, So probably .060 range. Guests here for a couple days but will try to measure a blank tomorrow.

I posted the splice pix so my comments about centering blanks was not perceived as being totally naive or un-practiced. (Might still have some mistaken ideas about cues as this is a learning thing for me, but not totally uninformed about splices, lol)

smt

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Many cue woods lose their contrast from a distance, particularly after finishing. Those pieces are super nice, especially if the grain isn't angled. If the price was good and it was all of that quality, best to buy all you can eat at the time.

Ssonerai said:

First and foremost, let me say most of your cues define elegance for me. It would be impossible to remove a detail, nor in most cases add one, and have the cue be any better either way. (Within its own concept).

But i've been puzzling about your statement above, and trying to figure out if it is even possible to put together a full splice without that condition holding, unless the fabricator is seriously bending the prongs on the mating points.

Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how many cues I've seen with the long point and the short point next to each other. How are you going to move the center or move any part of the cue around to get those to line up without some sanding or shaving manipulation?
These were not only FS but also SS style cues. Now I have no idea how this happened but I can only speculate that something was out of whack during the cutting process or there was some major wood movement going on after things were glue assembled. Yes, I've seen movement happens on FS cues after the glue up also.
Some may feel that by using a full length core or doing a FS that the woods(cue)will not move. Not always the case. Woods used, technique and solid construction methods play just as an important part in the equation. And then there may be still a slight risk in overall longevity of no movement.

scdiveteam said:

The a joint area becomes the strongest part of the dowel.

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If you're cutting grooves in the full length dowel for V points and filling them with say epoxy or bondo or whatever...how does that make it the strongest part of the dowel?
I don't care how large of a dowel you start out with behind the forearm section unless you're cutting long skinny points with very little depth your going to cut deep into a core dowel unless the dowel is around 1/4" in diameter.
According to your pictures the finished size dowel doesn't appear to be that small in diameter.
How does filling these gaps with glue at the end of your point pockets make it stronger?

BarenbruggeCues said:

You'd be surprised how many cues I've seen with the long point and the short point next to each other. How are you going to move the center or move any part of the cue around to get those to line up without some sanding or shaving manipulation?
These were not only FS but also SS style cues. Now I have no idea how this happened but I can only speculate that something was out of whack during the cutting process or there was some major wood movement going on after things were glue assembled. Yes, I've seen movement happens on FS cues after the glue up also.
Some may feel that by using a full length core or doing a FS that the woods(cue)will not move. Not always the case. Woods used, technique and solid construction methods play just as an important part in the equation. And then there may be still a slight risk in overall longevity of no movement.

Click to expand...

The wood can move after the first cut with the bandsaw. You make the first of four cuts and that first slab/fin can spring out or in due to release of tension in the wood. The two adjacent cuts will result in points not completely true. If there is any twist in that movement, one point will be acute, the other obtuse. The obtuse one won't fully seat in the 90 degree groove and look short(er) but upon close examination, the groove itself filled with glue might be even with the others. An acute one will seat in the bottom of the groove but the splices won't be clean if you look from the sides of the blank.

That is just one of the things that can go wrong even if your jigs, your blanks, and your methods are as accurate as possible.

BarenbruggeCues said:

If you're cutting grooves in the full length dowel for V points and filling them with say epoxy or bondo or whatever...how does that make it the strongest part of the dowel?
I don't care how large of a dowel you start out with behind the forearm section unless you're cutting long skinny points with very little depth your going to cut deep into a core dowel unless the dowel is around 1/4" in diameter.
According to your pictures the finished size dowel doesn't appear to be that small in diameter.
How does filling these gaps with glue at the end of your point pockets make it stronger?

Click to expand...

I don't respond to questions replete with passive aggressive statements and negative innuendo.

I am very sorry you don't understand. Quote from Larry Fine, "I can't see, I can't see". Why? "I got my eyes closed".

My post was a direct and sycincked response to the question by creator of this thread.

scdiveteam said:

I don't respond to questions replete with passive aggressive statements and negative innuendo.

I am very sorry you don't understand. Quote from Larry Fine, "I can't see, I can't see". Why? "I got my eyes closed".

My post was a direct and sycincked response to the question by creator of this thread.

Click to expand...

You made a statement, I asked a very simple question pertaining to your statement and you continue to act like the little child you always have been since you've came to this board with your idiotic and baseless comments and statements that pertain to absolutely nothing.

I give you a chance and you are still the ahole you've always been. Quit trying to BS people your senseless wording and zero knowledge of anything to do with cues.

When you're producing this stuff that is easily seen on the outside I can only imagine what the internal garbage you create looks like.

The wood can move after the first cut with the bandsaw. You make the first of four cuts and that first slab/fin can spring out or in due to release of tension in the wood. The two adjacent cuts will result in points not completely true. If there is any twist in that movement, one point will be acute, the other obtuse. The obtuse one won't fully seat in the 90 degree groove and look short(er) but upon close examination, the groove itself filled with glue might be even with the others. An acute one will seat in the bottom of the groove but the splices won't be clean if you look from the sides of the blank.

That is just one of the things that can go wrong even if your jigs, your blanks, and your methods are as accurate as possible.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that explanation - a warning for things to watch for.

or there was some major wood movement going on after things were glue assembled. Yes, I've seen movement happens on FS cues after the glue up also

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I'm almost surprised if this does not happen, lol. (to some extent)
But if the joint was was right when assembled, and if it did not separate during the rest period (from stress/released stress) or as the cue is first turned to a dowel; it seems like a "well made" joint should be possible to dial in so long as both ends of the blank are manipulated as indicated by developing conditions at the splice.

Your notes and especially MVP's description clarified some of the pitfalls for me.

I really am trying to learn this stuff, so hope it does not offend people.



It turns out, thicker than i remembered. The butt i was copying at the time had full 1/8" fins & I thought that looked a little thick. So made some practice cuts at around 1/16". Then i chickened out and made them a little thicker. Keep in mind, at this point i don't know if there is an "ideal" for that end. So i decided to aim for in between. They are actually about 3/32"/.090" . Is it better if they are thicker or thinner?

Thanks!
smt

BarenbruggeCues said:

You made a statement, I asked a very simple question pertaining to your statement and you continue to act like the little child you always have been since you've came to this board with your idiotic and baseless comments and statements that pertain to absolutely nothing.

I give you a chance and you are still the ahole you've always been. Quit trying to BS people your senseless wording and zero knowledge of anything to do with cues.

When you're producing this stuff that is easily seen on the outside I can only imagine what the internal garbage you create looks like.

Click to expand...

You gave me a chance? LOL. Am I suppose to feel special or blessed somehow?

Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree. Your question was not serious, only a means to an end to attack and make you feel better abou yourself. This is a pattern you seem to embrace. I am sorry you don't like what I do.

My advice to you is to focus on things that bring joy to your life. You can learn how to be happy and change your ways. Your self loathing can be modified. There are professionals you may seek out that can help you.

Making yourself feel good by attacking others shows your real weakness. Narcissism. JMO.

Over and out.

Ricky

Ssonerai said:

Thank you for that explanation - a warning for things to watch for.



I'm almost surprised if this does not happen, lol. (to some extent)
But if the joint was was right when assembled, and if it did not separate during the rest period (from stress/released stress) or as the cue is first turned to a dowel; it seems like a "well made" joint should be possible to dial in so long as both ends of the blank are manipulated as indicated by developing conditions at the splice.

Your notes and especially MVP's description clarified some of the pitfalls for me.

I really am trying to learn this stuff, so hope it does not offend people.

It turns out, thicker than i remembered. The butt i was copying at the time had full 1/8" fins & I thought that looked a little thick. So made some practice cuts at around 1/16". Then i chickened out and made them a little thicker. Keep in mind, at this point i don't know if there is an "ideal" for that end. So i decided to aim for in between. They are actually about 3/32"/.090" . Is it better if they are thicker or thinner?

Thanks!
smt

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Asking if it is "better" to have thicker or thinner webs/gaps requires some sort of criteria to answer.

In general, the thickest webs are found on house cues and lower priced blanks. They are easier to do, as you can testify with your "chickened out" comment. As you go up the chain in blanks, the webs get a little thinner.

Most customers probably don't care, but a lot appreciate the thinner or sharper return points. A few really appreciate them, but probably don't understand how nearly impossible it is for the return points to be "fully sharp".

By "chickened out" I meant stylistically. The butt i was using for reference was a FS butt blank from Cue Supply in Fla that i regretted buying because it did not have the BE advertised in the picture, and it had sloppy glue lines requiring some filler. It had full 1/8" fins, so when i went thinner, i though "well maybe this is wrong, they must know something i don't". Stylistically (esthetically) i did not know which might be preferred. I can actually see it both ways from a style perspective.

It's actually more difficult to cut it wider than about 3/32 on a band saw and get a flat bottom. Maybe the blank from CS was cut on a tablesaw, i don't know. That would take 8 cuts instead of 4. (total)

I can see how making it less than about .040 - .035 might be tricky, though. The band needs enough set so it cuts a straight line and does not try to follow the grain, as it will if you dress all the set off. So an .025 band is probably good for down to maybe a .030 - .035 kerf?

Thanks for the explanations you've taken the time to offer.

smt

Ssonerai said:

By "chickened out" I meant stylistically. The butt i was using for reference was a FS butt blank from Cue Supply in Fla that i regretted buying because it did not have the BE advertised in the picture, and it had sloppy glue lines requiring some filler. It had full 1/8" fins, so when i went thinner, i though "well maybe this is wrong, they must know something i don't". Stylistically (esthetically) i did not know which might be preferred. I can actually see it both ways from a style perspective.

It's actually more difficult to cut it wider than about 3/32 on a band saw and get a flat bottom. Maybe the blank from CS was cut on a tablesaw, i don't know. That would take 8 cuts instead of 4. (total)

I can see how making it less than about .040 - .035 might be tricky, though. The band needs enough set so it cuts a straight line and does not try to follow the grain, as it will if you dress all the set off. So an .025 band is probably good for down to maybe a .030 - .035 kerf?

Thanks for the explanations you've taken the time to offer.

smt

Click to expand...

When I said it was more difficult to go thinner, it was at least partially implied going thinner than the band set would allow without manually dressing up the base of the points. Yes, the same can be said for going significantly larger than the saw kerf.

Going really thin is a challenge when cutting the forearms. I'm talking .015" or smaller.

scdiveteam said:

You gave me a chance? LOL. Am I suppose to feel special or blessed somehow?

Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree. Your question was not serious, only a means to an end to attack and make you feel better abou yourself. This is a pattern you seem to embrace. I am sorry you don't like what I do.

My advice to you is to focus on things that bring joy to your life. You can learn how to be happy and change your ways. Your self loathing can be modified. There are professionals you may seek out that can help you.

Making yourself feel good by attacking others shows your real weakness. Narcissism. JMO.

Over and out.

Ricky

Click to expand...

Dear Ricky ghandi....your words of enlightenment are wasted.
You are special...very special indeed.



I don't care if you put 270,000 psi epoxy in those gaping crevices it is still going to be a weak link in your chain you knuckle brain.

All we're trying to do help and you just continue to push away.
You probably forgot all about the time just recently that you couldn't even put a joint pin in straight and came here begging for help. After repeated attempts to get you straightened out all you wanted to do was argue that your way was better.
No Ricky, your way of boring the hole 5 thou oversize and "massaging" the pin to the center of the hole while the glue is setting up is not the correct way of completing that simple exercise to get your pins in cue straight and on center you ballast brain.

Do us all a favor and find something else to do besides wasting wood in a futile attempt to call yourself a cue builder.

scdiveteam said:

I don't respond to questions replete with passive aggressive statements and negative innuendo.

.

Click to expand...

First, a statement....
Remember, posting advice here that can and will be followed by others, and if false or incorrect info is given, it WILL cause people to lose wood, money, and possibly cause injury. It Behooves all of us that give advice to make sure all advice is from people that actually know what they are talking about. Some newer members may think I am out of line with the following, but, believe me, and the others that have had to deal with him,...the guy known as Rick, on here and other sites, has proved many times to not be the qualified builder/engineer he claims, and can become a very rude, and vulgar person when someone exposes him for what he is.

That being said, Ricky....
Point 1) If you don't respond to these types of questions...then why did you respond? I know why...you simply cannot help yourself....its the compulsion to sound smart, and look like you are superior, even though you are not either. At least you haven't used a bunch of large words yet that contradict each other....all in the same sentence.
Point 2) You stated: 'Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree"
Dave never said anything about 70,000 psi and Neither did you...Until you just pulled the number out of you azz. just for your post... In a vain attempt to make one of the most talented cuemakers of our time, to look bad and make you look smart. Now, how have you measured the PSI of the epoxy in those gaps?? What test equipment was used and under what circumstances? Was this the same epoxy that blew out those cues in a cargo hold of a plane after being fully cured? I believe an ACTUAL engineer (that provided certs and you didn't,I think you blamed a fire for eating your creds..) proved you wrong on that one ......LMAO....
those of us that have dealt with you here and at Jimbo's site know, who you are, and how you are, and how you operate. Most of the 'advice' you give is severely flawed on many levels. Some can even cause harm....remember the battery charger deal?
Go open your shop, and enjoy the time you have left, but please let the advice be given by the people that actually know what they are talking about....
Dave

To the original poster's question, I build my cues on a 30" core, but when it comes to points, I don't do them on that core. I bore the forearm, and glue the 15" dowel in. I then proceed to cut and glue the points. Then I re-bore the forearm and then mount it to the full size core. That is the simple story. I use dial indicators on both ends of the forearm to dial it in to run true before boring. I also bore the dia. of the drill about 1" deep on both ends to prevent blowing out or cracking the forearm when the gundrill comes out the other end. It is a pain to keep the points even, But it is the strongest way IMO, to do points on a core. The result will only be as good as the efforts to keep everything true as you go thru the steps. HTHs. Have included a couple pics..

Dave

Appreciating all the free advice.

Especially the "collegial debate" on good vs bad advice (practice).:grin-square:

FWIW as a woodworker i use about a C unit (5 gallons) of WEST per year for the past 35 yrs. Some years a lot less, some years more. I wondered about that "70K psi" note, lol. I supect you could fill WEST to attain that in compression, but that is meaningless in something like a cue, where flex and tensile strength as well as stiffness matter more. WEST has or will provide engineering data backed up by years of science and testing, when asked. If this is not clear, i agree that filling those voids with epoxy (any brand) does nothing to mitigate a weak point and stress riser in a poorly considered joint that is undercut to be way too weak for the application.

OTOH as a woodworker i am constantly flummoxed because i do it right, and people with little background who do it ("it" being any technical system of joinery etc.) all wrong sell more product and don't have the obvious failures they should. Sometimes the cosmos is not fair!

My question today (if it is not proprietary info)?

As a hobbyist, i've built only a few cues. Several full splice. Never built a cored cue. Dave - I like the description of the full dowel; it appeals to my sense of structure as a woodwhacker. I can also see arguments for or against that vs A joint. But sticking to full dowel, do you by any chance taper the dowel to vaguely mirror the OD Butt taper? Or step it? If not, what size do you turn the dowel/core? I'm going to sort of assume you drill/bore the outside butt component and then closely size the core to it? Either way, what is the approximate target size for the core?

Thanks!
smt