Why pool is different !!!

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Legalised betting is definitely a factor, but perhaps because its legal here its not a big deal, whilst of course plenty of people do bet on games, in % terms its a very small minority of people and even then mostly for fun rather than serious bets.

Legalised gambling of course increases the prize pots through sponsorship, which helps, but before the betting companies starting putting down cash it was the cigarette companies (which isn't allowed now in Europe), so I think even if gambling was banned snooker in the UK at least would be fine (as someone else would step up to sponsor events).

I'm under the impression (and may be wrong) that there is a much larger betting culture in parts of Asia and it may well affect viewing figures there if you stopped gambling.

Anyway, the top snooker players are all multi-millionaire's, that is why its a popular game...with good prize money on offer a lot of people want to play, hence a lot of people come into contact with the game and there is general interest.

Also, perhaps a big factor is that the WC and the Masters are on free to air TV not cable/satellite, so everyone can watch for free.

I agree that gambling is not a big factor in snooker's success. Snooker took off commercially in the early 80's, and the betting companies have only been significant sponsors relatively recently.

And gambling is not going to be pool's saviour - it is a chicken and egg situation: The big betting companies are only interested in activities that have reached a high level of success. Until that time, the risk / reward balance does not work.

Legalised gambling will not make pool a success; and it can only play a small part in sustaining it after it has become a success due to other factors.
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"God" didn't create the alternate break. It was dreamed up by a bunch of ninnies from Europe who decided to participate at the upper levels & found they couldn't compete so they cried until the format changed turning a gunslingers game into safety pool, an extremely boring version of what it was.

I don't think that is a valid description of the situation. I would consider it extremely boring, to watch someone run 200 balls in 14.1, or a dozen racks of 9ball, while I sat in my chair with no chance to compete, because the game is over!..There is no other game, (or sport) in the world, where once a score is made, that the ball is not turned over to the opposition, who is then at least given a chance to redeem themselves..

Gunslingers are fine, but should they be allowed to fire away uncontested!..That is not, what I would call "a game"!..'Safeties' are a legitimate way of defending yourself..Should you not have that option???
It appears as though, of all the competitive games in the world, only pool hustlers seem to enjoy being able to rob people, with no chance for the poor sucker to defend himself! :frown:
 
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Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
I don't think that is a valid description of the situation. I would consider it extremely boring, to watch someone run 200 balls in 14.1, or a dozen racks of 9ball, while I sat in my chair with no chance to compete, because the game is over!..There is no other game, (or sport) in the world, where once a score is made, that the ball is not turned over to the opposition, who is then at least given a chance to redeem themselves..

Gunslingers are fine, but should they be allowed to fire away uncontested!..That is not, what I would call "a game"!..'Safeties' are a legitimate way of defending yourself..Should you not have that option???
It appears as though, of all the competitive games in the world, only pool hustlers seem to enjoy being able to rob people, with no chance for the poor sucker to defend himself! :frown:



Before I respond to this post let me say this. I know who you are Dick & your exploits in the game & I respect your accomplishments. Let me also say I agree with many things in your original post about 1 game, standardized equipment, etc. I agree completely & think bar boxes should all be burned & that opinion or my willingness to continually say it isn't popular with many here.

Having said all that, that's where our opinions part ways. Come on Dick, until 15 or so years ago when the Euros showed up & then started whining about dominant breakers that tore off packages against them, burying them regularly which led to all the whining and changing to alternate break formats Pool was ALWAYS a game where it remained your inning until you missed, fouled or played a safety, period.

Is it fun to sit in the electric chair while somebody puts a 8 pack on you, no it's not but it's an important dynamic of the game that should not be lost. It tested your mettle. Could you stay composed in the chair & respond when you got an opportunity & fire back & take control of the table or do you fold like a house of cards because you lack heart?

Recently some older matches from the 90's were posted here, when pool was far more popular & thriving, unlike today where it's not. One of those matches, the 1993 LA Open 9 ball finals, Mark Tadd vs Dennis Hatch is the perfect example. It's a thread, pull it up & watch it. I read a comment on the match in the thread after I watched it & the poster summed it up nicely.

Real 9 ball, winner breaks, 9 counted on the snap, maybe 5-6 safety's played throughout the course of the match. Tadd breaking lights out making multiple balls on the break & yet Hatch never stiff racked him. Nobody hovering over the racks checking for rack mechanic shenanigans. Just 2 gunslingers shooting if out. When it ended you didn't see Hatch whining like a girl. Watch it.

Then go watch the famous 22 minute beat down match Jayson Shaw put on Mika Immonen at Turning Stone. Thankfully Mike Zuglan runs his tourney with these old school rules irregardless that the rest of the pool world now uses these sissy formats. What's interesting is watching that whiny little prat Mika as the match goes on. His behavior is like a recalcitrant child. He's so used to the newer formats that him & his European brethren brought to our game that he became totally unhinged getting his azz handed to him in the format that this game was & still should be. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Why? It's what this game was & still should be. Watching a top flight player catch one of those magical gears & just bury his opponent. Mika had chances but he was so caught up in acting like an indignant girl that got felt up at the drive in that he blew the few opportunities he had, he lacked heart.

Again I agree there should be one game, one size table, etc. there should also be legal gambling as that's what really makes snooker popular.

Lastly I'm a little shocked that someone such as yourself that has accomplished what you have in the game would say that formats that have been changed to the crap that they are now leading to 4-5 innings a ball due to safeties becoming a style of play instead of getting out is better. Safeties have always been a part of the game but now they have become a style of play instead of defense as they used to be.

Maybe it's just me but I find shoot 2 & duck, shoot 1 more & duck again, shot 2 more & duck a 3rd time before finally getting out to be a snooze fest. Give me a 5 pack anytime.

What's really amusing as while our sport has always languished behind others in popularity it was more popular during the 70's, 80's & 90's than it had been since the 30's or 40's. When did all that start to die off leading us to the 1 foot in the grave position it's in today? I'll tell you when, about 15-16 years ago when the whiners showed & couldn't complete & cried for all these format changes, that's when. I respect your accomplishments in the game, but you're wrong on this one.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can't seem to follow.
All I read is "I terribly want the game to be special" whereas - as a sport - it's not.
You have a physical and a mental aspect. Most sports have it, save that lousy thing you call football, hehehe :p

WE like pool because we enjoy it. And sometimes that's all there is to something.
WE like it. But it's nothing special at all.
You have your own stick and in almost any city there's a table and balls to play with.

I agree on the weird stuff with different sizes. OTOH also a soccer field is not 100% standardized and it kind of works in the world.

As for gambling and Colonel's sissies - only a balanced game is an interesting game.
I watch a game to see both players play and have a safety battle and aggressive shooting, every aspect there is.
Not just how balls fall into holes which is the most boring thing about the game.
The gambling part is you going back in time when there were coyboys and the wild west. I think we've advanced quite a bit?

You seem to favour the "winner takes it all" approach. That's fine by me, but then you need to acknowledge you also don't have a proper democracy because in the end it's just a one party, one man show riding you into dangerous waters every time ;)

The mentioned tournament from 1993 is repulsive - no referee anywhere. I kind of like watching Snooker referees, they have that special edge of politeness.

Cheers,
M
 
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Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
I can't seem to follow.
All I read is "I terribly want the game to be special" whereas - as a sport - it's not.
You have a physical and a mental aspect. Most sports have it, save that lousy thing you call football, hehehe :p

WE like pool because we enjoy it. And sometimes that's all there is to something.
WE like it. But it's nothing special at all.
You have your own stick and in almost any city there's a table and balls to play with.

I agree on the weird stuff with different sizes. OTOH also a soccer field is not 100% standardized and it kindo works in the world.

As for gambling and Colonel's sissies - only a balanced game is an interesting game.
I watch a game to see both players play and have a safety battle and aggressive shooting, every aspect there is.
Not just how balls fall into holes which is the most boring thing about the game.
The gambling part is you going back in time when there were coyboys and the wild west. I think we've advanced quite a bit?

You seem to favour the "winner takes it all" approach. That's fine by me, but then you need to acknowledge you also don't have a proper democracy because in the end it's just a one party, one man show riding you into dangerous waters every time ;)

Cheers,
M



Well as your European & it's from there that this whole "balanced" game thing rose from I see how you come to your position.

My perspective, as stated in my post you quoted is the game has been changed, not just the format but the dynamics also with the format. It's a watered down version.

You want a turn every time you play? Take up another sport where everybody gets a turn. Don't take a sport & change its rules to suit your shortcomings in that game.

But in todays "everyone plays, everyone gets a trophy" world your perspective seems normal. Like I said, sissies, get a heart transplant
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But in todays "everyone plays, everyone gets a trophy" world your perspective seems normal. Like I said, sissies, get a heart transplant

That's something I don't want either. At all. But I like a good back and forth with a nice bang in the end.

But in Snooker you also get a "shootout" with a 147 or a century. More often than you'd think. You can have scrappy frames, but even McMannus for example also pulled a lot of nice ones.

The only thing special about Pool/Snooker is that a simple thing (kick a ball to put a ball into a rather wide hole) can be soooo damn difficult.

I kind of seem to enjoy watching Pyramide lately, too. Just more possibilities.
Cheers!
M (who makes it more interesting by playing with a Snooker cue)
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Before I respond to this post let me say this. I know who you are Dick & your exploits in the game & I respect your accomplishments. Let me also say I agree with many things in your original post about 1 game, standardized equipment, etc. I agree completely & think bar boxes should all be burned & that opinion or my willingness to continually say it isn't popular with many here.

Having said all that, that's where our opinions part ways. Come on Dick, until 15 or so years ago when the Euros showed up & then started whining about dominant breakers that tore off packages against them, burying them regularly which led to all the whining and changing to alternate break formats Pool was ALWAYS a game where it remained your inning until you missed, fouled or played a safety, period.

Is it fun to sit in the electric chair while somebody puts a 8 pack on you, no it's not but it's an important dynamic of the game that should not be lost. It tested your mettle. Could you stay composed in the chair & respond when you got an opportunity & fire back & take control of the table or do you fold like a house of cards because you lack heart?

Recently some older matches from the 90's were posted here, when pool was far more popular & thriving, unlike today where it's not. One of those matches, the 1993 LA Open 9 ball finals, Mark Tadd vs Dennis Hatch is the perfect example. It's a thread, pull it up & watch it. I read a comment on the match in the thread after I watched it & the poster summed it up nicely.

Real 9 ball, winner breaks, 9 counted on the snap, maybe 5-6 safety's played throughout the course of the match. Tadd breaking lights out making multiple balls on the break & yet Hatch never stiff racked him. Nobody hovering over the racks checking for rack mechanic shenanigans. Just 2 gunslingers shooting if out. When it ended you didn't see Hatch whining like a girl. Watch it.

Then go watch the famous 22 minute beat down match Jayson Shaw put on Mika Immonen at Turning Stone. Thankfully Mike Zuglan runs his tourney with these old school rules irregardless that the rest of the pool world now uses these sissy formats. What's interesting is watching that whiny little prat Mika as the match goes on. His behavior is like a recalcitrant child. He's so used to the newer formats that him & his European brethren brought to our game that he became totally unhinged getting his azz handed to him in the format that this game was & still should be. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Why? It's what this game was & still should be. Watching a top flight player catch one of those magical gears & just bury his opponent. Mika had chances but he was so caught up in acting like an indignant girl that got felt up at the drive in that he blew the few opportunities he had, he lacked heart.

Again I agree there should be one game, one size table, etc. there should also be legal gambling as that's what really makes snooker popular.

Lastly I'm a little shocked that someone such as yourself that has accomplished what you have in the game would say that formats that have been changed to the crap that they are now leading to 4-5 innings a ball due to safeties becoming a style of play instead of getting out is better. Safeties have always been a part of the game but now they have become a style of play instead of defense as they used to be.

Maybe it's just me but I find shoot 2 & duck, shoot 1 more & duck again, shot 2 more & duck a 3rd time before finally getting out to be a snooze fest. Give me a 5 pack anytime.

What's really amusing as while our sport has always languished behind others in popularity it was more popular during the 70's, 80's & 90's than it had been since the 30's or 40's. When did all that start to die off leading us to the 1 foot in the grave position it's in today? I'll tell you when, about 15-16 years ago when the whiners showed & couldn't complete & cried for all these format changes, that's when. I respect your accomplishments in the game, but you're wrong on this one.

I'm with you, Colonel.

If you can break and run a 100 racks on me, then that is the way it goes. If I can run 100 on you, so be it also.

I've always noticed that most people who can't run packs are the first ones that complain about winner breaks.
 

CMarshall

D player at best
Silver Member
The kids today all have their own smart phones, and video games, and spend the majority of their time texting, etc.! Very few have ever even been exposed to pool!.. By the time they are 21, they have no desire to learn anything that may take a few years to excel at...

I agree with this 100% The only time my kids had ANY interest in playing pool is when I was watching the Hustlers on TV. They'd mess around with the game a little bit. Now? Nope. too busy watching BS videos on youtube or playing on their phone. I had to to kick one of my kids off the computer to be able to type this, in fact.


Take a few years to learn how to do anything? Kids these days have no attention span. Unless it has to do with how many "likes" they get on their post or some other crap. If they aren't ON their electronic device, they're TALKING about their electronic device.

:confused:
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm with you, Colonel.

If you can break and run a 100 racks on me, then that is the way it goes. If I can run 100 on you, so be it also.

I've always noticed that most people who can't run packs are the first ones that complain about winner breaks.

Mr. Eye..I really don't understand you or the Colonel's line of reasoning??? ..Are you saying, (for example) in football when you score a touchdown, you should receive the ensuing kick-off AGAIN to pile on more points? ..Or in baseball, no 3 outs and its the other teams chance to score runs.. Lets let the home team stay at bat, until their arms get tired, trying to hit home runs! :eek:

I think you are both misinterpreting the reason people complain about 'winner breaks'..All most people ever want, out of any game, is a fair chance to compete!..Both 8 and 9 ball, at the pro level, are conducive to possibly running out any given short set!..Is that your idea of a 'fair game'? :rolleyes:

PS..There will always be 'whiney cats' (like M.I.) in every sport! This has nothing to do with 'winner breaks'!
 
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Allen Brown

Pool Whale
Silver Member
Take the game back to like it was in the 90's and it will thrive. Don't ever try to fix what isn't broken.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Rodney Morris

Good thread Dick!

Barry Hearns in one of his interviews a few years ago, with Ronnie O'Sullivan mentioned some of the "secrets" that transformed snooker and made it attractive to the viewers. I don't have a link to it or I would provide it.

Suffice it to say, the interview was insightful and Barry described what is wrong with pool, although he was talking about the early days of snooker before it became so popular. If someone gets the link, post it in this thread.

Players had to transform themselves and had to develop a following. I was going to save this message for a Facebook page but since you are kind of responsible for me thinking about it now I will share some of the details of the early days of snooker.

While I am doing so, I believe that Rodney Morris must have seen the same video because he is doing what Barry suggested to the snooker players before it became popular.

Rodney is letting people know who he is, using social media like Facebook. Rodney is by far, the most interesting AND APPROACHABLE professional pool player out there right now.

Rodney regularly posts his opinion about many different things, always using his innate humor to make people laugh. His skills have not diminished and continues to work on his health and performance at the table. I believe he may be leading the Mosconi Cup race in points at the moment. Rodney regularly tells the reader (on FB) that if they see him at an event to be sure and tell him hello. Rodney has a likable and strong personality and many people do interact with him.

I believe by doing these type of things Rodney increases his chance of acquiring more and better sponsors AND of adding even more fans.

He is carrying himself in a positive manner, playing great pool and making his fans to feel comfortable in getting to know him.

I don't know if Rodney has a "manager" or not, but I am positive he is on the right path.




I will try to keep this observation as brief as possible, but it won't be easy. I have a lot of spare time these days, so I hope you find it interesting. We all share a love for the various games of pool, or else why would we be here? First, let me break down the obvious differences between pool, (regardless of a particular game) and every other sport/game played anywhere in the world.

Games only come in two varieties..competitive, and non-competitive, and we all know the difference. Games/sports that are physically competitive include, football, baseball, basketball, tennis, etc. Games/sports that are non-competitive, are golf, bowling, darts, and of course pool. These games are only reliant on how you, yourself perform. Your opponent(s) have no control over anything you do, or fail to do.

The game of pool is unique, in that there is some control over the mix of defense and offense, that will effect the outcome most of the time. Like any game played with round (or oblong) balls..rolls or bounces, may quite often determine the outcome. No way to ever change that.

The point I am trying to make, is that is why we were attracted to the game in the first place. It is very difficult to become proficient at it, without investing a lot of time and practice. This is the challenge that attracted us to pool. We don't have to be physically bigger, or stronger, to prevail..we just have to be smarter, and play better than our opponent(s).

The one big problem with our game, is the fact that we have too many different games, rules, table sizes etc. It almost takes a written contract before play can commence. By far, the most popular and accepted game is 8ball. Other games may require more skill, but specializing in them opens yet another can of worms, when it comes to matching up. or tournaments.

I guess the message I am trying to convey, is this. In order to bring pool out of the doldrums, we need to do as the Brit's have done with snooker. Their success is obvious. There is only one game, one set of rules, and one size table. We also have NO much needed governing body. The BCA is a farce!

Until we find a way to present an exciting, interesting product for the viewing public, pool is destined to languish as an 'also ran' in popularity, even though millions enjoy it every day. If you recall, Mike Sigel advised the con man Trudeau, to use 8ball as his single game for the IPT, and he at least got pool noticed.

I think one pocket, is the best game played on a pool table. But, I am realistic enough to know, it will never be a popular spectator game. So what the heck, there are a lot worse games than 8ball..and everyone, especially 'Joe Six-pack', already knows how its played!

If we haven't already ruined our chances, by some questionable poor decisions, (ie; dumps etc.) maybe there is still time to bring some quality, high dollar sponsors into pool..Lets hope so!
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mr. Eye..I really don't understand you or the Colonel's line of reasoning??? ..Are you saying, (for example) in football when you score a touchdown, you should receive the ensuing kick-off AGAIN to pile on more points? ..Or in baseball, no 3 outs and its the other teams chance to score runs.. Lets let the home team stay at bat, until their arms get tired, trying to hit home runs! :eek:

I think you are both misinterpreting the reason people complain about 'winner breaks'..All most people ever want, out of any game, is a fair chance to compete!..Both 8 and 9 ball, at the pro level, are conducive to possibly running out any given short set!..Is that your idea of a 'fair game'? :rolleyes:

PS..There will always be 'whiney cats' (like M.I.) in every sport! This has nothing to do with 'winner breaks'!

You like your rules, we like ours. Pool isn't football, nor baseball, nor soccer...pool is pool.

I think everyone should get a chance to shoot at least once during a set. If the breaker runs X number of games and the set and their opponent doesn't get to shoot, then give the opponent a break and he has the opportunity to match the run. As soon as he misses, the set is over if he doesn't match the run. If he matches it, then they play a tie breaker.
 

Player

I'm your huckleberry
Silver Member
You like your rules, we like ours. Pool isn't football, nor baseball, nor soccer...pool is pool.

I think everyone should get a chance to shoot at least once during a set. If the breaker runs X number of games and the set and their opponent doesn't get to shoot, then give the opponent a break and he has the opportunity to match the run. As soon as he misses, the set is over if he doesn't match the run. If he matches it, then they play a tie breaker.

^^^ That would be a good format.:thumbup::thumbup:
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You like your rules, we like ours. Pool isn't football, nor baseball, nor soccer...pool is pool.

I think everyone should get a chance to shoot at least once during a set. If the breaker runs X number of games and the set and their opponent doesn't get to shoot, then give the opponent a break and he has the opportunity to match the run. As soon as he misses, the set is over if he doesn't match the run. If he matches it, then they play a tie breaker.

That is the silliest proposal I have ever heard!..With an alternating break format, both players get to compete equally, at the same time!.. One player does not have to sit 'til he dozes off, then be expected to perform normally!..You used to form sensible arguments..Now I get the feeling you are just trying to be contrary. :rolleyes:
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is the silliest proposal I have ever heard!..With an alternating break format, both players get to compete equally, at the same time!.. One player does not have to sit 'til he dozes off, then be expected to perform normally!..You used to form sensible arguments..Now I get the feeling you are just trying to be contrary. :rolleyes:

Contrary would be suggesting 'Bowlliards' as a game with equal offense, if that is your preferred style of play. :thumbup:
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ever hear of the "equalizing inning" in 3-cushion billiards?

He's a one-pocket player. He doesn't do runs...he bangs rails for hours and hours and eventually somebody gets to 8 balls in their hole and they start over.

I'd rather watch one guy shoot balls in the holes for 8 days straight without missing than watch a single game of one-pocket that lasts 8 days.
 

Paul Schofield

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ours are all about 'instant gratification'! As others have pointed out, our playgrounds are virtually empty these days. Our kids are all holed up in their rooms, texting or playing video games! :sorry:

sorry: I respectfully disagree. I have to speak up here. We cannot hold a candle to the kids of today. They are bigger, smarter, faster, stronger, more coordinate, and wiser than we were at their age. If we would have had their options back in our day, today, pool would only be something you swam in.
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
Mr. Eye..I really don't understand you or the Colonel's line of reasoning??? ..Are you saying, (for example) in football when you score a touchdown, you should receive the ensuing kick-off AGAIN to pile on more points? ..Or in baseball, no 3 outs and its the other teams chance to score runs.. Lets let the home team stay at bat, until their arms get tired, trying to hit home runs! :eek:

I think you are both misinterpreting the reason people complain about 'winner breaks'..All most people ever want, out of any game, is a fair chance to compete!..Both 8 and 9 ball, at the pro level, are conducive to possibly running out any given short set!..Is that your idea of a 'fair game'? :rolleyes:

PS..There will always be 'whiney cats' (like M.I.) in every sport! This has nothing to do with 'winner breaks'!



Well Dick as Hawaiian Eye put it this isn't football, tennis or any other sport based on revolving turns. It is pool which as I said in my 1st post is a game that it is your inning until you foul, miss or play a safety. Or it least it was until all the Whiney Cats as you put whined enough until the formats changed, which changed the game & it's unique dynamics.

It is those dynamics & difference from other games that initially drew me to the game. I like the feeling that some refer to as "pressure". I thrive on it, revel in it & love applying it. Can I stand up to the heat of a large package being put on me as I sit cold in the chair & keep my composure & respond when it's my RIGHTFUL turn, after my opponent fouls, misses or plays a safety? I've always relished that challenge & thrill in it. Even more so the thrill of wondering and watching to see if my opponent can after I put it back on him? That is something that is unique to this game & this game only, which is why I chose this game over others & spent my life in it.

To watch that be changed by those that can't handle these unique pressures is like watching someone take something that has always been a part of me since I 1st fell in love with it as a child in my fathers hall & desecrate it. This is what drives my passionate opinions about it.
 
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jojopiff

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The egomaniacs here are hilarious. The OP puts together a well thought plan using common sense in rules & game to help get pool popular again. Then everyone comes in with today's kids are ninnies (who raised these kids to be that way I wonder?) and these alternate breaks rules suck, and small tables suck, and (my favorite) "take up another game if you don't like it". How on all ****s is telling someone to take up another game going to help grow our game? It's this elitist, arrogant garbage that keeps it where it is.

I'm fine with pool the way it is & JCIN 's post is the way I feel so I'm not going to repeat it.

Most here have zero interest in seeing pool popular unless it's the way (game, rules, etc) they like to play.
 
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