wrist snap on draw stroke- ?
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wrist snap on draw stroke- ? - 08-30-2020, 02:08 PM

"deep knowledge" or pool hall hokum?
shout to the kid tho..I enjoy his stroke and patter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhWZAu31hk


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08-30-2020, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
"deep knowledge" or pool hall hokum?
shout to the kid tho..I enjoy his stroke and patter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhWZAu31hk
Uh......what?????

You have to "Snap Your Wrist" to get draw?

You have to "Aim 3-4 inches left of the pocket" to make this shot?

I am really curious what posters think about this type of instruction.

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08-30-2020, 03:50 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
"deep knowledge" or pool hall hokum? ...
I think you already know which it is.

The interesting part of this is that I think he really believes what he is saying.

It would be amusing to sneak in a weighted-ferrule shaft on him and see if he still hits that cut shot with outside spin too thin.


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08-30-2020, 05:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think you already know which it is.

The interesting part of this is that I think he really believes what he is saying.

It would be amusing to sneak in a weighted-ferrule shaft on him and see if he still hits that cut shot with outside spin too thin.
well when you put it like that..
you have much faith in me, bob
not to say I'm not doubtful, but to be clear-
can wrist-snapping have an (extra) effect on what happens to the cb?
if not, why not?

otherwise, I'm sure the kid thinks snapping helps
one of things like "keep your eye on the ball," I guess
(ps, thanks for "the sports gene" reco.)


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08-30-2020, 05:45 PM

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Originally Posted by DrCue'sProtege View Post
Uh......what?????

You have to "Snap Your Wrist" to get draw?

You have to "Aim 3-4 inches left of the pocket" to make this shot?

I am really curious what posters think about this type of instruction.

r/DCP
You don't "have to" snap your wrist, but if you can do it accurately enough it can add a little speed to the stroke.

Aiming a little to the side to compensate for spin-induced throw is legitimate, but Kid's shot doesn't really throw as far as he thinks (the high speed and back spin both reduce the throw).

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08-30-2020, 06:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
You don't "have to" snap your wrist, but if you can do it accurately enough it can add a little speed to the stroke.

Aiming a little to the side to compensate for spin-induced throw is legitimate, but Kid's shot doesn't really throw as far as he thinks (the high speed and back spin both reduce the throw).

pj
chgo
Hitting it that hard, I would expect that the deflection could more than offset the spin induced throw. If anything I think the normal miss would be to hit it a bit thick, wouldn’t it?


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08-30-2020, 07:29 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
... not to say I'm not doubtful, but to be clear-
can wrist-snapping have an (extra) effect on what happens to the cb?
...
If you rest your lower arm against something, such as the edge of your dining table, to keep your lower arm from moving at all, and you use just your wrist to move a cue stick, I think you will find that you can get some forward motion into the cue stick. So the simple answer is as Pat said, yes, you can get a tiny little bit of extra speed on the cue ball if you snap your wrist at exactly the correct time.

As far as getting some "special wrist juice" on the cue ball, if that's what you mean by extra effect, then no.

There are some people who talk about the four, or the six or the 733 different special strokes. I think you will be better off not to listen to such people.


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08-30-2020, 09:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
If you rest your lower arm against something, such as the edge of your dining table, to keep your lower arm from moving at all, and you use just your wrist to move a cue stick, I think you will find that you can get some forward motion into the cue stick. So the simple answer is as Pat said, yes, you can get a tiny little bit of extra speed on the cue ball if you snap your wrist at exactly the correct time.

As far as getting some "special wrist juice" on the cue ball, if that's what you mean by extra effect, then no.

There are some people who talk about the four, or the six or the 733 different special strokes. I think you will be better off not to listen to such people.
thanks bob, I see it..I'm just having trouble explaining to myself why
something about the distance from the grip to the cb, the shape of the cue
I'm not sure..but it's interesting


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08-30-2020, 10:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Kid's shot doesn't really throw as far as he thinks (the high speed and back spin both reduce the throw).
hi pat
does the back spin reduce the throw because the cb back spin makes the ob roll forward?


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A different approach with different effects
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A different approach with different effects - 08-31-2020, 01:34 AM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
"deep knowledge" or pool hall hokum?
shout to the kid tho..I enjoy his stroke and patter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhWZAu31hk
This Kid Delicious zinger shot reminds me of a TAR podcast with Fransisco

https://youtu.be/6Y2qoCtdiak

One of the interviewer was trying to tell Fransisco that he had to make allowance for deflection on the cue ball, in direct contradiction of Fransisco telling him he needs to adjust his aim in the opposite direction, to counter the cb spin. Now go back and listen carefully to Delcious’s description, his action and the description involves “snapping your wrist, a little bit, at the end of the stroke.....”. Think about that. He is describing a timed stroke, an accelerated delivery through the ball. Watch the shot. His cue ends up on an angled plane touching the table bed.

During the recent World Snooker Championship, Ronnie O’Sullivan, made repeated references to his cue action.

https://youtu.be/S6em4pblhcM

This link is an interview where he talks about timing being the key. I can’t find the clip where he is air stroking his cue action, in his chair, feeling the movement and you can see his hand snapping forward through the contact phase, similar to KD. Ronnie and Stephen Lee talk about feeling the tip bite into the ball. The downward plane contact creates resistance as the ball is driven into the bed. Mike Segal mentions about using a downward angle stroke. The extended contact created adds a feel element not there on horizontal delivery.

During a post final interview he mentions the feel of penetrating the ball.

[https://youtu.be/Tb8dql4PuXA

That feel is part of what is there when he is in stroke. Players who advocate a horizontal delivery are recommending a multi-plane approach to the game. Many positions, such as any time the rail is involved, must deal with a downward cue plane at the contact point. The impact of the rail is less on a bigger table because of a larger surface. Despite that, Del Hill, World Snooker’s Honorary Coach, and several of his World Snooker Champion students, simplify the game by adopting a downward angle approach as a central principle. For them a level stroke involves extending the cue travel on a straight line based on its plane at contact. A fixed elbow can’t deliver the cue through on plane. Ronnie became one of Del’s disciples at an early age. Then Ray Reardon even increased that down plane angle by convincing Ronnie to shorten his bridge.

A downward plane contact changes how the ball deflects. Longer tip contact keeps the cue ball on the original cue force line longer because of prolonged friction based directional momentum. The normal deflection angle of applied side is blunted by the fact the ball needs to overcome cloth/table resistance first. The cue ball travels on a more cue direction friction forced path. That said the english subsequently imparted on the ball is exaggerated. MassŤ is an extreme example. The resistance allows the gripping penetration of the tip to impart more spin. A drag shot works on the same principle, using a lesser angle. More force can and often must be used to overcome the increased resistance, and get the desired outcome.

Relating this back to the Kid Delicious and Fransisco B shots, the takeaway is that the extra resistance generated by the downward stroke increases the spin generated throw and minimizes the deflection comparatively. Ronnie talked about moving closer to the table helped him when he was off stroke. It improved his timing. It also increases his downward plane slightly on many shots adding to the resistance feel. Eventually he made a grip adjustment, during a one hour troubleshooting session, that brought back his timing.

A horizontal delivery through contact complicates things when timing and feel is needed. It requires different adjustments for spin and deflection. Since a horizontal delivery is not possible on all shots and a downward plane is, the practitioners of Del Hill’s methods seek a different kind of consistency, with fewer adjustments.

Last edited by Imac007; 08-31-2020 at 01:54 AM.
  
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08-31-2020, 02:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
This Kid Delicious zinger shot reminds me of a TAR podcast with Fransisco

https://youtu.be/6Y2qoCtdiak

One of the interviewer was trying to tell Fransisco that he had to make allowance for deflection on the cue ball, in direct contradiction of Fransisco telling him he needs to adjust his aim in the opposite direction, to counter the cb spin. Now go back and listen carefully to Delcious’s description, his action and the description involves “snapping your wrist, a little bit, at the end of the stroke.....”. Think about that. He is describing a timed stroke, an accelerated delivery through the ball. Watch the shot. His cue ends up on an angled plane touching the table bed.

During the recent World Snooker Championship, Ronnie O’Sullivan, made repeated references to his cue action.

https://youtu.be/S6em4pblhcM

This link is an interview where he talks about timing being the key. I can’t find the clip where he is air stroking his cue action, in his chair, feeling the movement and you can see his hand snapping forward through the contact phase, similar to KD. Ronnie and Stephen Lee talk about feeling the tip bite into the ball. The downward plane contact creates resistance as the ball is driven into the bed. Mike Segal mentions about using a downward angle stroke. The extended contact created adds a feel element not there on horizontal delivery.

During a post final interview he mentions the feel of penetrating the ball.

[https://youtu.be/Tb8dql4PuXA

That feel is part of what is there when he is in stroke. Players who advocate a horizontal delivery are recommending a multi-plane approach to the game. Many positions, such as any time the rail is involved, must deal with a downward cue plane at the contact point. The impact of the rail is less on a bigger table because of a larger surface. Despite that, Del Hill, World Snooker’s Honorary Coach, and several of his World Snooker Champion students, simplify the game by adopting a downward angle approach as a central principle. For them a level stroke involves extending the cue travel on a straight line based on its plane at contact. A fixed elbow can’t deliver the cue through on plane. Ronnie became one of Del’s disciples at an early age. Then Ray Reardon even increased that down plane angle by convincing Ronnie to shorten his bridge.

A downward plane contact changes how the ball deflects. Longer tip contact keeps the cue ball on the original cue force line longer because of prolonged friction based directional momentum. The normal deflection angle of applied side is blunted by the fact the ball needs to overcome cloth/table resistance first. The cue ball travels on a more cue direction friction forced path. That said the english subsequently imparted on the ball is exaggerated. MassŤ is an extreme example. The resistance allows the gripping penetration of the tip to impart more spin. A drag shot works on the same principle, using a lesser angle. More force can and often must be used to overcome the increased resistance, and get the desired outcome.

Relating this back to the Kid Delicious and Fransisco B shots, the takeaway is that the extra resistance generated by the downward stroke increases the spin generated throw and minimizes the deflection comparatively. Ronnie talked about moving closer to the table helped him when he was off stroke. It improved his timing. It also increases his downward plane slightly on many shots adding to the resistance feel. Eventually he made a grip adjustment, during a one hour troubleshooting session, that brought back his timing.

A horizontal delivery through contact complicates things when timing and feel is needed. It requires different adjustments for spin and deflection. Since a horizontal delivery is not possible on all shots and a downward plane is, the practitioners of Del Hill’s methods seek a different kind of consistency, with fewer adjustments.
hey 'mac, thanks for the shout
not sure I get the "horizontal delivery" biz
is that aiming center axis, but shooting with english?
-back hand english?

the downward plane stuff is interesting
naturally, don't we hit down?
since a level cue is so difficult to achieve
what degree angled down is a fun idea to think about

in terms of keeping in line I like the pendulum idea
but it seems unrealistic to use a true pendulum stroke for many shots

I looked at kid's shot again, but in slo-mo
interestingly, he does seem to snap the wrist to the cb
and shortens his stroke on the way
of course just because he's doing it, doesn't mean it helps the shot
I still fail to see how it would, tho visually I admit the wrist-snap is attractive


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"

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08-31-2020, 02:37 AM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
hi pat
does the back spin reduce the throw because the cb back spin makes the ob roll forward?
In a sense, yes. It’s because some of the sideways ball/ball friction that causes throw has been diverted to vertical friction. The same total amount of friction is now divided into two directions.

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08-31-2020, 10:34 AM

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In a sense, yes. It’s because some of the sideways ball/ball friction that causes throw has been diverted to vertical friction. The same total amount of friction is now divided into two directions.

pj
chgo
That's correct but let me rephrase it a little.

The total frictional force between the balls is limited by how sticky their surfaces are. So, pulling a number out of the air, if the "pushing" force during ball-to-ball contact is 20 pounds (for a very brief time) the "sideways" force from the friction of the cue ball sliding on the object ball is some fraction of that, say 1 pound, for that same very brief time. The "coefficient of friction" in that case would be 1 in 20 or 5% or 0.05. (For a list of useful pool physics numbers, including actual measured coefficients of friction, see https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/...al-properties/)

In a full-ball follow shot without side spin, all of that friction is directed down on the contact point, which adds slight backspin on the object ball with that brief 1 pound of force. If instead you shoot a stun shot with side spin and the same speed, the 1 pound of force acts sideways instead of down, so you get throw and you put sidespin on the object ball. If you have follow (or draw) in addition to the side spin, the total of 1 pound of frictional force is divided into a down part and a sideways part so the sideways part is smaller than 1 pound and you get less throw.

Friction is complicated. In high school I was taught that the coefficient of friction for a surface-to-surface sliding contact is constant. In fact it changes depending on the speed of sliding and the force between the surfaces. Faster sliding and higher force (which usually go together) cause a reduction in the coefficient of friction.

These two factors explain why you get maximum throw with a soft stun shot -- all the friction is sideways and the coefficient of friction is as large as possible.

Of course you don't have to know any of this to play like a champion and you better not be thinking of the 0.0423 coefficient of friction reduced by the cosine of the rubbing angle to 0.0377 while you are playing a shot. It's better to be not thinking at all.


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08-31-2020, 12:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
You don't "have to" snap your wrist, but if you can do it accurately enough it can add a little speed to the stroke.

Aiming a little to the side to compensate for spin-induced throw is legitimate, but Kid's shot doesn't really throw as far as he thinks (the high speed and back spin both reduce the throw).

pj
chgo
Excellent comments. That quick whipping action can definitely create more spin, but it has to consistently accurate as far as stroke delivery goes.

Concerning how the Kid aims this shot, well, that's feel. If he feels like he's aiming it six inches thick, then that's how he sees the shot. It's a very helpful video in that regard. The same "aim thick" advice applies to all shots with outside spin, especially when the ob is close to the rail. It's good advice that should help anyone who continues to miss such shots.
  
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08-31-2020, 01:05 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
"deep knowledge" or pool hall hokum?
shout to the kid tho..I enjoy his stroke and patter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhWZAu31hk
Yup. It's also a popular technique for breaking as well. I break that way and I have a hard break. First, it assures you that you're not slowing down just prior to impact and second, it provides a little extra speed right at the end of the stroke. It's all good.
  
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