Straight Pool Statistics
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justnum
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Straight Pool Statistics - 06-27-2019, 12:53 PM

In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
  
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06-27-2019, 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
Yes safties and fouls count into the occasion since it is a turn at the table. This is how i score it in my league as well.


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06-27-2019, 02:09 PM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
Yes safties and fouls count into the occasion since it is a turn at the table. This is how i score it in my league as well.
I donít think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO


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06-27-2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I don’t think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO
I think that is correct or certainly should be. Refusing the shot is not a turn at the table.

But if it was a turn and you wanted to screw up your opponent's average, win the lag, take the break shot and miss the rack five times in a row.

So far as I know, no written set of rules has good instructions for how to score per-inning average. If your opponent concedes the last three hangers do you get credit for them? (as just one example)


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06-27-2019, 06:33 PM

Are we writing the standard system for statistics of a 14.1 match?
The discussions leads to,

Does that mean player A had one inning with multiple fouls?

Or is that two separate innings with only Player A having a turn?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think that is correct or certainly should be. Refusing the shot is not a turn at the table.

But if it was a turn and you wanted to screw up your opponent's average, win the lag, take the break shot and miss the rack five times in a row.

So far as I know, no written set of rules has good instructions for how to score per-inning average. If your opponent concedes the last three hangers do you get credit for them? (as just one example)
  
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06-28-2019, 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.
In the 14.1 stats I do, no, requesting a re-break does not count as an inning.

Quote:
Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?
I do it two ways -- an average based on all innings and an average based on "attempted scoring innings," which does not count innings that consisted only of a safety or an intentional foul.

Quote:
The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.
This isn't clear.

Quote:
I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.
To my knowledge, no such thing exists.

Quote:
Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
Of course; intentional fouls are an integral part of 14.1.

Here's an example of the 14.1 stats threads I do: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479422
  
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06-28-2019, 09:22 AM

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Originally Posted by justnum View Post
... Does that mean player A had one inning with multiple fouls? ...
That's what I would choose if I were writing the 14.1 standards for scoring.


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justnum
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06-28-2019, 09:22 AM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post

Here's an example of the 14.1 stats threads I do: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479422

You statistics is great for showing what pro level performance is like.

I am not a pro. I am hardly a strong amateur.

For me to measure myself with the same stats as a pro will reveal the obvious, how poorly I compare.


To better gauge my amateur improvement my focus will be on intention of the shot?

I've seen some pros play a safe, but the incoming player finds a line from the rack.

When an intentional foul results in the incoming player having a small runout instead of giving up a large runout.

When a player misses during a run out and leaves a high runout pattern for the incoming player.

I know myself well enough to select choice shots at specific moments, but other times am completely ignorant to the risks of missing.

The stats of amateur 141 to me is about what types of errors am I making during my match. Errors aside from the obvious, I can't pocket balls and I can't get the right shape.

I am thinking about errors that I can fix and do not require huge amounts of training, just a shift in my approach during the match.

The stats might reveal how many balls I give up when I fail to play safe and go for the run out.

It could reveal that each time I go for the safe, I end winning the defense battle.

Those tips for me as an amateur are easier goals, than just saying I am going run 16 balls today. I am not even close to having that as an achievable goal.

Last edited by justnum; 06-28-2019 at 09:26 AM.
  
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06-28-2019, 09:32 AM

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That's what I would choose if I were writing the 14.1 standards for scoring.

Any thoughts on how to profile players aside from their match performance.

I keep hearing the old players with bad vision, old players with shaky hands and young players doing better after a few drinks.

I don't think Effren got worse, I just think everyone else got better.

What is the optimal physical profile of a billiards player, 5ft tall or 7 ft tall?
Does arm length and wingspan matter?
Does 20/20 vision make a difference?
How do you measure players that stay calm during a big payday tournament final round?
Pool players have a strong tradition of strong outbursts following what seemed to be pro level playing. Is that a "crazy" factor?
  
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06-28-2019, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Any thoughts on how to profile players aside from their match performance. ...
I think it's better to profile them according to what they do in matches and perhaps the occasional exhibition run. One example would be statistics on the sort of shots they end up playing in the run. How much does the cue ball move? How many clusters do they have to deal with -- how many times does the cue ball contact a second object ball on a shot? How hard are the shots the player ends up shooting? What are the typical break shots? (Although safety play seems to have gone out of style....) What fraction of safety battles does a player win. I imagine that Pat Fleming has some categories to add to this.

The nebulous stuff is best left to the talking heads.


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06-28-2019, 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.


I believe Straight Pool Deluxe (SPD), which is the app I use, does not increment the innings for player B. Therefore if player A starts the game committing five illegal breaks (for which player B insists player A rebreaks), player A will have five innings recorded and there will be zero innings recorded for player B.

On a similar note, SPD records balls per inning (BPI) in the traditional sense (number of balls pocketed divided by the current number of innings). This BPI is affected by the way innings are counted as indicated above.

There is a separate statistic called SPD Avg which ignores innings that start with a safety or an intentional foul, which provided a more offensive type of BPI. There is a configuration parameter that will control whether to count innings started with a safety if the incoming player attempts a shot regardless of whether they make it, indicating that the safety wasnít effective.


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06-30-2019, 04:27 PM

Balls per inning is not the same as average balls per run. Both are important.

Balls per inning has the ability to highlight exceptional defense in 141.
Average Balls per run showcases, amazing pocketing skills.

Take the situation below:
A fouls, B plays safe, A fouls, B plays safe, A plays safe, B runs 150.
B has an average balls per run of 150, safes dont count,
B has an average balls per inning of 50.


Situation 2
Player C fouls, B plays safe, C fouls, B runs 150.
Player B is amazing, average balls per run 150.
Player B has an average balls per inning of 75.

Who is the better defensive player? Player C or Player A.

Someone that can play more innings against a high runner can only be seen in average balls per inning.

When evaluating lower tier players, knowing how to interpret the info can help players get better.
Player B could say both Players A and C loss, but the average balls per inning could be interpreted to say A knows better defense than C.


There should also be some sort of errors category.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I don’t think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO

Last edited by justnum; 06-30-2019 at 04:30 PM.
  
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