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Rules question - accidental cue ball movement
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cascader
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Question Rules question - accidental cue ball movement - 03-31-2019, 10:26 AM

Scenario:
14.1 friendly game, race to 60 using CSI rules, self refereed.

Player 1 makes a ball in other than called pocket, which is then quickly spotted by player 1, and cueball is left sitting in kitchen where it came to rest. Player 2 comes to table.

Cue ball and one object ball are in kitchen, other balls in rack area with no simple shots or safeties apparent.

Player 2 picks up cue ball, briefly thinking it was ball in hand as a result of a scratch, and that the ball was spotted as a result of a scratch, rather than incorrect pocket. No reason to believe pickup was other than truly accidental. Player 1 calls foul, the cue ball is temporarily replaced approximately where it was, and a rules check is made. Player 2 agrees he erred.

Upon reading the deliberate foul wording, it wasn’t clear if it and the relatively harsh 16 point penalty would apply, as the act was more accidental than deliberate. Players agreed to play on as though a standard accidental cue ball movement occurred, with a loss of turn, 1 point penalty, and allow shooting the ball in the kitchen, and to seek rule clarification, and generalization to any of the CSI games where in incoming player accidentally picks up a cue ball.

Wondering if there is any judgement involved in applying the rules in this case, or if the answer is well defined.

Last edited by cascader; 03-31-2019 at 11:11 AM.
  
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03-31-2019, 10:39 AM

Friendly game, accidental/not deliberate, then no penalty. Replace cue ball to mutually agreed upon position and continue the game. If it were a match, wether the action was deliberate or accidental, it would incur a 16 point penalty.

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Bob Jewett
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03-31-2019, 06:23 PM

I think this rule in the "Applied Rulings" is sort of what you are looking for:
While CSI hopes that good sportsmanship and good communication prevail, situations will inevitably arise in which there is a disagreement between players whether a foul was committed. In such a situation, if the incoming player takes ball in hand without consulting with their opponent, and then a referee cannot positively determine that the opponent did indeed foul, the incoming player has touched the cue ball with no basis to do so, and will be charged with a foul. However, the basis for the foul will be Rule 1-33-7-a, and it will not be considered a deliberate foul under Rule 1-40-a.
"Unintentional intentional" and "confused about the flow of the game" acts are in general not covered well in rule sets.

"That's a foul, Mr. Mosconi."

"Foul? What foul?"

"You're chalking with the two ball, Mr. Mosconi."


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03-31-2019, 06:47 PM

different rule question, what do you do when the 15th ball lies inside the rack area?
happened to me twice today


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03-31-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Carom Club View Post
different rule question, what do you do when the 15th ball lies inside the rack area?
happened to me twice today
There are quite a few different situations. Here are the rules:

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

Go to 14.1 and then to "Special Racking Situations". There's a chart you can print out to help remember.


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03-31-2019, 06:59 PM

If the 15th ball is in the rack it goes to the head spot. Cue ball in the rack goes to the kitchen. If both are in the rack, I believe the 15th ball is racked (full rack) and the cue ball goes to the kitchen. But there are quite a few other situations.


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Last edited by DaveM; 03-31-2019 at 07:06 PM.
  
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04-01-2019, 04:54 AM

i gotta find up a way to make a corner ball on a full rack, happens alot to me that i dont have a shot on the 15th, and i just bet theres a way to make a corner ball


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04-01-2019, 07:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Carom Club View Post
i gotta find up a way to make a corner ball on a full rack, happens alot to me that i dont have a shot on the 15th, and i just bet theres a way to make a corner ball
you can bank it back to the corner pocket in the kitchen on the same side
if you get the right angle with the cue ball
  
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04-01-2019, 07:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Carom Club View Post
different rule question, what do you do when the 15th ball lies inside the rack area?
happened to me twice today
there is a good diagram at the end of this section that i couldnt copy and paste for some reason
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Continuous-Pool
section 4.8
4.8 Special Racking Situations

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack,
the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within
or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes
with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen
balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the
head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue
ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or
on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind
the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is
blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play
as the first shot
of the new rack.
accidentally moved by the referee when racking.

Last edited by bbb; 04-01-2019 at 08:01 AM.
  
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04-01-2019, 08:31 AM

If it's just a knockabout then it's up to the players to determine what to do. I'd let it go and chalk it up to an honest mistake but it's not my decision since I wasn't playing.
  
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Talking 04-01-2019, 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascader View Post
Scenario:
14.1 friendly game, race to 60 using CSI rules, self refereed.

Player 1 makes a ball in other than called pocket, which is then quickly spotted by player 1, and cueball is left sitting in kitchen where it came to rest. Player 2 comes to table.

Cue ball and one object ball are in kitchen, other balls in rack area with no simple shots or safeties apparent.

Player 2 picks up cue ball, briefly thinking it was ball in hand as a result of a scratch, and that the ball was spotted as a result of a scratch, rather than incorrect pocket. No reason to believe pickup was other than truly accidental. Player 1 calls foul, the cue ball is temporarily replaced approximately where it was, and a rules check is made. Player 2 agrees he erred.

Upon reading the deliberate foul wording, it wasn’t clear if it and the relatively harsh 16 point penalty would apply, as the act was more accidental than deliberate. Players agreed to play on as though a standard accidental cue ball movement occurred, with a loss of turn, 1 point penalty, and allow shooting the ball in the kitchen, and to seek rule clarification, and generalization to any of the CSI games where in incoming player accidentally picks up a cue ball.

Wondering if there is any judgement involved in applying the rules in this case, or if the answer is well defined.

I think this should be ruled as a -1 point deduction, just to make the players pay attention to the game !!! just sayin


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04-01-2019, 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
you can bank it back to the corner pocket in the kitchen on the same side
if you get the right angle with the cue ball
If the cue ball is behind the rack and in the right spot the corner ball can be banked cross side.
Did it once to continue a 100+ ball run.


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04-01-2019, 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by measureman View Post
If the cue ball is behind the rack and in the right spot the corner ball can be banked cross side.
Did it once to continue a 100+ ball run.
i did not know that
thanks...
  
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04-01-2019, 08:48 PM

Thanks, this looks like a good answer to the question.

One point of confusion was whether the ball in the kitchen could be shot after the foul was assessed. Since it wasn’t a pocket scratch, just a foul, we assumed it could be.

A one point penalty was assessed, the same as any standard foul.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think this rule in the "Applied Rulings" is sort of what you are looking for:
While CSI hopes that good sportsmanship and good communication prevail, situations will inevitably arise in which there is a disagreement between players whether a foul was committed. In such a situation, if the incoming player takes ball in hand without consulting with their opponent, and then a referee cannot positively determine that the opponent did indeed foul, the incoming player has touched the cue ball with no basis to do so, and will be charged with a foul. However, the basis for the foul will be Rule 1-33-7-a, and it will not be considered a deliberate foul under Rule 1-40-a.
"Unintentional intentional" and "confused about the flow of the game" acts are in general not covered well in rule sets.

"That's a foul, Mr. Mosconi."

"Foul? What foul?"

"You're chalking with the two ball, Mr. Mosconi."
  
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Bob Jewett
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04-01-2019, 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascader View Post
Thanks, this looks like a good answer to the question.

One point of confusion was whether the ball in the kitchen could be shot after the foul was assessed. Since it wasn’t a pocket scratch, just a foul, we assumed it could be.

A one point penalty was assessed, the same as any standard foul.
I think you found a good solution. I think in general when the game sort of runs off the rails is that you should try to put it back on track as best you can even if the rule book doesn't quite cover the chaos.


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