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Question: Opening Break - 06-01-2019, 11:55 AM

I have always believed on the opening break. When causing an illegal break and the cue ball goes in the upper corner pocket, that it was only -2 points and that the illegal break over rides the scratch.... I recently watched a 2017 match between Alex P. and Thorsten H.... where Alex scratched while making an illegal break... They counted it all to be -3 and Alex was on one foul.... Maybe Bob Jewett can help out with this question. Is there anything written?
  
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06-01-2019, 03:45 PM

I've always played:

-Two object balls hit the rail, cueball scratch = 1pt foul, no option for incoming player to force a re-break. Breaker on 1 foul.

-Less than two object balls hit the rail, no cueball scratch = 2pt foul, incoming player can ask for re-rack and break if he chooses. Breaker on 0 fouls.

-Less than two object balls hit the rail and cueball scratches = 3pt foul, incoming player can ask for re-rack and break if he chooses. Breaker on 1 foul.

Last edited by Mick; 06-01-2019 at 03:48 PM.
  
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06-01-2019, 04:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I've always played:

-Two object balls hit the rail, cueball scratch = 1pt foul, no option for incoming player to force a re-break. Breaker on 1 foul.

-Less than two object balls hit the rail, no cueball scratch = 2pt foul, incoming player can ask for re-rack and break if he chooses. Breaker on 0 fouls.

-Less than two object balls hit the rail and cueball scratches = 3pt foul, incoming player can ask for re-rack and break if he chooses. Breaker on 1 foul.

Thanks for writing but I am not looking for the way a person always played it. I am looking for the on the books rule.... If anyone doesn't come up with the official rule, because I can't find it... Your comment and others will help me decide how I will use it in my 14.1 League. Thanks.

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06-01-2019, 05:32 PM

There is no three point foul. A breaking foul is a failure to meet the requirement for a legal break. A standard foul would be pocketing the cue ball.

As noted in the BCA Rules of 14.1 Continuous, Section 4.10, "If both a standard foul and a breaking foul happen on one shot, it is considered a breaking foul."
  
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06-01-2019, 07:45 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
There is no three point foul. A breaking foul is a failure to meet the requirement for a legal break. A standard foul would be pocketing the cue ball.

As noted in the BCA Rules of 14.1 Continuous, Section 4.10, "If both a standard foul and a breaking foul happen on one shot, it is considered a breaking foul."
It is depressing how ignorant many of the top "professionals" are about the rules. In my darker moments I think of how just it would be as the ref to penalize a clueless "pro" by calling an unsportsmanlike penalty for not knowing the basic rules of the game and eject him from the tournament. I think that would only work if I were also the promoter and only sponsor. But it might get the attention of some of the rules know-nothings.


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06-01-2019, 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
There is no three point foul. A breaking foul is a failure to meet the requirement for a legal break. A standard foul would be pocketing the cue ball.

As noted in the BCA Rules of 14.1 Continuous, Section 4.10, "If both a standard foul and a breaking foul happen on one shot, it is considered a breaking foul."
Thank you..... and thank you too Bob for commenting.... I have always played it properly but when I viewed this match. It really took me by surprise. I just had to find out. I was wondering, maybe they rewrote the rule.... Here is the Link to the match.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGHS...7Y7ySUH5gn6n_g You have to start it a little back... listen to the commentators... no one knows the proper rule.

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06-01-2019, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It is depressing how ignorant many of the top "professionals" are about the rules. In my darker moments I think of how just it would be as the ref to penalize a clueless "pro" by calling an unsportsmanlike penalty for not knowing the basic rules of the game and eject him from the tournament. I think that would only work if I were also the promoter and only sponsor. But it might get the attention of some of the rules know-nothings.
Bob Jewett -- judge, jury and executioner!


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06-01-2019, 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It is depressing how ignorant many of the top "professionals" are about the rules. In my darker moments I think of how just it would be as the ref to penalize a clueless "pro" by calling an unsportsmanlike penalty for not knowing the basic rules of the game and eject him from the tournament....
Works for me, Bob.
  
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Question: Opening Break
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Question: Opening Break - 06-02-2019, 12:39 AM

Both the WPA and BCAPL rules are the same for this situation.


WPA Rule 4.10 Breaking Foul

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#%20410Breaking-Foul


BCAPL Rule 6-6

6-6 Scratch or Foul and Opening Break Violation - Penalty
1. If you scratch or foul on the opening break and fail to meet the opening break requirement, you are penalized 2 points. Your opponent may:
a. take cue ball in hand behind the head string with the table in position, or;
b. require you to re-rack all 15 balls and repeat the opening break.
2. This situation is penalized as an opening break violation only. You are penalized two points, but the violation does not count as a foul under the Successive Foul Penalty Rule.


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06-02-2019, 05:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9BallJim View Post
Both the WPA and BCAPL rules are the same for this situation.


WPA Rule 4.10 Breaking Foul

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#%20410Breaking-Foul


BCAPL Rule 6-6

6-6 Scratch or Foul and Opening Break Violation - Penalty
1. If you scratch or foul on the opening break and fail to meet the opening break requirement, you are penalized 2 points. Your opponent may:
a. take cue ball in hand behind the head string with the table in position, or;
b. require you to re-rack all 15 balls and repeat the opening break.
2. This situation is penalized as an opening break violation only. You are penalized two points, but the violation does not count as a foul under the Successive Foul Penalty Rule.
Thanks Jim... good find!
  
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06-03-2019, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14-1StraightMan View Post
I have always believed on the opening break. When causing an illegal break and the cue ball goes in the upper corner pocket, that it was only -2 points and that the illegal break over rides the scratch.... I recently watched a 2017 match between Alex P. and Thorsten H.... where Alex scratched while making an illegal break... They counted it all to be -3 and Alex was on one foul.... Maybe Bob Jewett can help out with this question. Is there anything written?
If you scratch on the Opening Break it's -1 Point even if the two balls don't hit the rail. and the opponent is on 1 Foul. It is not a forced re-break since the player will have Ball In Hand in the kitchen.


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06-03-2019, 11:21 AM

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If you scratch on the Opening Break it's -1 Point even if the two balls don't hit the rail. and the opponent is on 1 Foul. It is not a forced re-break since the player will have Ball In Hand in the kitchen.
No, absolutely not. As stated above and in the actual official rules, if you both scratch and fail to get two balls to a cushion, it is -2 not -1. Your opponent has the option of taking ball in hand or having you break again.


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06-03-2019, 12:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No, absolutely not. As stated above and in the actual official rules, if you both scratch and fail to get two balls to a cushion, it is -2 not -1. Your opponent has the option of taking ball in hand or having you break again.

Steve, you have this one wrong. You need to correct your League rules.
  
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06-04-2019, 06:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No, absolutely not. As stated above and in the actual official rules, if you both scratch and fail to get two balls to a cushion, it is -2 not -1. Your opponent has the option of taking ball in hand or having you break again.
I've always ruled the scratch on the opening break as -1, if two object balls don't hit a rail its minus 2.

they ruled it the same way in a tournament at Comet Billiards for the Jack Colovita tourney.


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06-04-2019, 09:09 AM

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Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
I've always ruled the scratch on the opening break as -1, if two object balls don't hit a rail its minus 2. ...
What is the rule if both kinds of foul happen: no 2 balls and a scratch? That's what I was commenting about.


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