Flat Angle Shot On The 1B - How Do You Play It?

BC21

BC21

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BilliardsAbout said:
Yes, I can see it in a pro match. From an education standpoint, 90% of league players cut the line constantly to their detriment.
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That sounds about right. Instead of making it an exception (something that must be done every now and then in order to get the correct angle on the next ball), they shoot most shots with complete disregard, or ignorance, of the shot line and coming into the widest area for position.

That's where an instructor can help. The info is easily found in many books, but a live demonstration of the process is always more enlightening.
 
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sparkle84

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Patrick Johnson said:
I like the idea of playing the 2 uptable, but I'd try an approach with more MOE: a stun-rollthrough hit to come softly off the end rail at about the middle diamond.

pj
chgo
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You know, that was actually my 1st thought. The only thing worrisome was landing with an angle where either the 4 or 5 would be a bit of an obstacle. Straight in would be best but anything else could present problems.
Actually, this is one of those scenarios where there's a number of ways you could go but whichever you choose it's going to have to be executed fairly well or you're liable to be in a bit of bother.
 
BC21

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I used masking tape to show possible position zones for a good shot on the 2 that'll lead to the 3.

picture.php


Playing the cb to land behind the 2 for a shot up table or in the side would be very iffy, considering you must stop the cb in one of a few small areas as shown (anywhere on the tape would not be good). The 2-rail shape for a corner shot takes the cb toward the 5 ball, but could work if hit just right. The draw shot brings the cb into the largest position available to get a good shot on the 2. If you glance off the 2, the 2 rolls closer toward the corner pocket and the cb comes off the rail leaving a shot.

There are potential pitfalls with each shot here, so you'd have to decide for yourself which shot you can pull off most consistently. The most important thing, if you elect to go for it, is to pocket the 1 and not hook yourself on the 2.
 
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BC21

BC21

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croscoe said:
Great job Brian. Some talk about how it should be or could be done. And even take time to judge your results.
You taking the time to video / show is appreciated.
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Thanks.....:embarrassed2:
 
sixwillwin

sixwillwin

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I like these posts about shots. And I love how BC21 contributes and amazing how he takes the time to video and post. I learn every time! thanks
 
Ratta

Ratta

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BC21 said:
That sounds about right. Instead of making it an exception (something that must be done every now and then in order to get the correct angle on the next ball), they shoot most shots with complete disregard, or ignorance, of the shot line and coming into the widest area for position.

That's where an instructor can help. The info is easily found in many books, but a live demonstration of the process is always more enlightening.
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Yup :) that s a phenomen :p
 
F

FranCrimi

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BC21 said:
Yes, I made sure to go a little farther after that first shot.
As you know, some shots require cutting across the line. Watch any pro match and you'll see it very often. Strict adherence to position guidelines is not reality. I could shoot this 100 times, and I'm sure sometimes I'd glance off that 2 every now and then, sometimes I'd be straight in on the 2, other times I'd have a thinner or thicker angle than I want, and other times I'd hit it absolutely perfect. But of all the options, this works best for me.

I think many players are misled into believing that shape must be perfect, that pros are always perfectly in line and therefore we should be also if we expect to be a good player. But that's not the reality of playing pool, not even for the greatest players. Sure, sometimes we must get perfect position, but that doesn't mean we will, whether you play like Jason Shaw or not. Probably 99% of the time, playing 9 or 10 ball, all you really need is a shot angle that leads to the next shot, focusing on the process from one shot to the next, gaining position in a general area, not overthinking or overtrying to get perfect position. Thinking this way, and incorporating the basics of position play when possible, leads to solid play in my opinion, and you'll find yourself getting near perfect quite often without really trying.
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You can defend that shot all day long bit I will disagree with your choice all day long. It's simply way too risky. The cue ball has to hold a lot of backspin for a long distance all the way to the ob, and then it has to continue to hold that backspin on it's way to the side rail -- enough so that it passes the 2 ball.

And then don't forget the speed you need to use which will make pocketing the ball even riskier.

Try that on a damp day and you're dead. The only way I would consider shooting that shot is on a table with a brand new cloth where it's easy to draw the cue ball -- and to repeat what I wrote before, my preference is always to use backspin whenever I can.

OTOH, a nice smooth stroke with high outside, and without having to punch the ball, is all you need to easily pocket the 1 ball and get around the table and out for the 2 ball. Easy peasy.
 
BC21

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FranCrimi said:
You can defend that shot all day long bit I will disagree with your choice all day long. It's simply way too risky. The cue ball has to hold a lot of backspin for a long distance all the way to the ob, and then it has to continue to hold that backspin on it's way to the side rail -- enough so that it passes the 2 ball.

And then don't forget the speed you need to use which will make pocketing the ball even riskier.

Try that on a damp day and you're dead. The only way I would consider shooting that shot is on a table with a brand new cloth where it's easy to draw the cue ball -- and to repeat what I wrote before, my preference is always to use backspin whenever I can.

OTOH, a nice smooth stroke with high outside, and without having to punch the ball, is all you need to easily pocket the 1 ball and get around the table and out for the 2 ball. Easy peasy.
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I understand, and you can probably spin that cb right around the 2 for good shape. I can't. The cb goes toward the 5, not center table. It would be nice to see someone successfully shoot the 2-railer a few times and get a good shot on the 2 that leads to the 3. If it's easy I'd like to learn it. But I don't think any option here is all that easy.

The draw is surely not an easy shot as far as stroke goes. But with straight draw, no side spin, it's an easy cut shot, regardless of speed. The back spin does not stay on the cb all the way to the rail. It lasts long enough to draw back off the 1 at an angle/bend toward the rail, then it rolls by the 2 and bounces off the rail and back toward center table. Similar shots come up quite often, so it's a good one to practice.
 
BC21

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sixwillwin said:
I like these posts about shots. And I love how BC21 contributes and amazing how he takes the time to video and post. I learn every time! thanks
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Thank you. I like these WWYD shots also. It provides a unique way to practice all options on those oddball shots that you have to face every now and then.
 
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FranCrimi

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BC21 said:
I understand, and you can probably spin that cb right around the 2 for good shape. I can't. The cb goes toward the 5, not center table. It would be nice to see someone successfully shoot the 2-railer a few times and get a good shot on the 2 that leads to the 3. If it's easy I'd like to learn it. But I don't think any option here is all that easy.

The draw is surely not an easy shot as far as stroke goes. But with straight draw, no side spin, it's an easy cut shot, regardless of speed. The back spin does not stay on the cb all the way to the rail. It lasts long enough to draw back off the 1 at an angle/bend toward the rail, then it rolls by the 2 and bounces off the rail and back toward center table. Similar shots come up quite often, so it's a good one to practice.
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Yes, I'm familiar with the shot and how it works when you use backspin. I highly recommend to other posters here that they practice the high right option.

Just a reminder to other posters here: Make sure you are aiming high enough and with enough right spin, even if it takes you out of your comfort zone. Don't let stuff like that hold you back. Experiment!
 
BC21

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FranCrimi said:
Yes, I'm familiar with the shot and how it works when you use backspin. I highly recommend to other posters here that they practice the high right option.

Just a reminder to other posters here: Make sure you are aiming high enough and with enough right spin, even if it takes you out of your comfort zone. Don't let stuff like that hold you back. Experiment!
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That's the key....experiment! Try things outside of your comfort zone. Push the limits. Always listen to the advice of others, especially those that have "been there and done that", but above all be creative and learn how to make your own way, regardless of how anyone else or everyone else does it.

Most often the standard/common way is best, but through experimentation and experience you'll begin to recognize when the common way just won't cut it.
 
Patrick Johnson

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FranCrimi said:
Yes, I'm familiar with the shot and how it works when you use backspin. I highly recommend to other posters here that they practice the high right option.

Just a reminder to other posters here: Make sure you are aiming high enough and with enough right spin, even if it takes you out of your comfort zone. Don't let stuff like that hold you back. Experiment!
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Also experiment with little or no follow - the CB will naturally gain follow spin on its way to the OB, especially if the shot isn’t whacked hard. It’s pretty much never necessary to use more than about 80% of maximum follow, even for high speed shots.

pj
chgo
 
sixwillwin

sixwillwin

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FranCrimi said:
Yes, I'm familiar with the shot and how it works when you use backspin. I highly recommend to other posters here that they practice the high right option.

Just a reminder to other posters here: Make sure you are aiming high enough and with enough right spin, even if it takes you out of your comfort zone. Don't let stuff like that hold you back. Experiment!
Click to expand...

Different shots get the job done. You should post a video of your experience and practice with this shot like BC21 did. This is an honest suggestion, I would like to see it
 
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sparkle84

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BC21 said:
For me, this particular shot doesnt appear to be the standard bread and butter 2-rails back to center when you set it up and shoot it. The cb goes toward the 5 ball. And when trying to come in tight/close to the 2 to get a better angle, the likelihood of hitting the 2 is very real. So as far as a typical bread butter shot goes, this one seems like the butter is cold and hard and doesn't spread easily. :D.



I'd love to see a video example of anyone that can shoot this 2 rails and get the cb somewhere between the "S" and the "k" in "Sticks" on that ChalkySticks logo. I don't see it happening by going between the 2 and rail. It looks possible to get there by going between the 2 and 9, but you'd really have to manipulate Have that CB, possibly missing the 1 ball shot.

.
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Have to agree with this. The natural path just ain't there. To get a decent angle on the 2 you have to pass very close to it when you come off the 2nd rail. It's not easy to do and the better the follow is going to the short rail is actually counterproductive. It gets you further to the left and you'll come off long which is no good.
If I'm going to shoot it this way I'd want to get as far to the right as possible but not so far that I hit the 2 coming off the 2nd rail. Very small margin there.
But as pointed out, drawing above the 2 also has a very small margin and I wouldn't even consider it, in spite of how well you executed it in the video.
Perhaps it's a shot you happen to shoot extremely well but I think it would prove very difficult for most players.
 
BC21

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sparkle84 said:
Have to agree with this. The natural path just ain't there. To get a decent angle on the 2 you have to pass very close to it when you come off the 2nd rail. It's not easy to do and the better the follow is going to the short rail is actually counterproductive. It gets you further to the left and you'll come off long which is no good.
If I'm going to shoot it this way I'd want to get as far to the right as possible but not so far that I hit the 2 coming off the 2nd rail. Very small margin there.
But as pointed out, drawing above the 2 also has a very small margin and I wouldn't even consider it, in spite of how well you executed it in the video.
Perhaps it's a shot you happen to shoot extremely well but I think it would prove very difficult for most players.
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Makes sense. The draw shot isn't easy, but getting shape is automatic as long as you don't hit the 2 full in the face on your way across. Thinning it or even glancing off at about half a ball will still provide a shot on the 2, though may or may not be a good angle to get to the 3.

The 2-rail with top right is more natural and easier to shoot, but the angle is wrong for good position on the 2. Trying to tighten the cb up around the 2 could just as easily cause it to hit the 2, which would not leave much of a shot.

Playing for a long corner shot or side pocket shot relies on perfect speed coming off the end rail in order to get a good angle on the 2.

This is the type of shot, for me anyway, that depends on how I've been hitting the balls. If your deep into a set and have a good feel for how the table is playing, you'll have a better feel for how you'd like to play this shot if it comes up. If it's the first shot of a match or your first shot for the night, any option could result in complications for the 2 ball.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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BC21 said:
The 2-rail with top right is more natural and easier to shoot
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An alternative to controlling the rebound angle with spin is to control the carom angle off the 1 by varying tip height. The choice can depend on which angle you want into and off of the second rail.

pj
chgo
 
BC21

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Patrick Johnson said:
An alternative to controlling the rebound angle with spin is to control the carom angle off the 1 by varying tip height. The choice can depend on which angle you want into and off of the second rail.

pj
chgo
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Yes, but to get anywhere close to a decent angle on the 2 ball I think there needs to be some right english to send the cb wide off the end rail and into the long rail just about straight across from the 2 or a little below it.

With no right spin the cb comes off the long rail above the 2 and leaves you a backcut. That's why Fran says to use more top along with the right spin -- so the cb will grab the end rail to the left of the center diamond, and the right spin will send it wide behind the 2 at an angle into that 2nd rail that'll allow the cb to head more toward the large position area near center table. Using the correct speed and spin, and pocketing the 1, I find it more difficult than the straight draw shot because you can't use maximum top and enough right english at the same time, well...at least I can't. :eek:
 
BC21

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Come on DrCue'sProtege....give us another one! :thumbup:

I think these WWYD shots provide excellent learning opportunities.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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Patrick Johnson said:
An alternative to controlling the rebound angle with spin is to control the carom angle off the 1 by varying tip height. The choice can depend on which angle you want into and off of the second rail.

pj
chgo
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BC21 said:
Yes, but to get anywhere close to a decent angle on the 2 ball I think there needs to be some right english to send the cb wide off the end rail and into the long rail just about straight across from the 2 or a little below it.
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You don't need right spin to do that - a little more stun (lower tip) works too. And then the CB is traveling more crosstable off the second rail (because less spin). [Edit: I agree the path with spin is probably more advantageous here than this option.]

I practice precision stun-rollthrough carom angles by choosing challenging CB paths in practice - like going between a ball and a rail when the gap is small.

pj
chgo
 
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