YOUR Definition of Player Levels

Korsakoff · Jul 9, 2020

Forget Fargo references.

Omit professional players and how you would define them.

Think your local poolroom, or perhaps even regional great rooms reasonably within your area. Some of you are knowledgeable Nationally, and should you choose to respond, please use that knowledge.

If you are relatively new to the game or consider yourself as a “casual player” (whatever that is), then I’d prefer you read rather than contribute.

So, I’d be curious as to how some of the experienced minds here on AZB might define levels of players. (I did do a search across all forums for “level of players”; I read 5 pages and Page 10 and did not see something similar.)

Let’s set the basic rating Grades: A-B-C-D. Let’s assume that a “D” player is a player interested enough to be into pool. Might be a league player, more into it for the social aspect. Let’s assume an “A” player references some bad-ass AZB members as well as those in the shadows. Difficult to set the upper/lower limits, or I would not be asking the question.

So, rather than argue about the loose guidelines, if you are so inclined, please post the level grade and your definition. The best definitions are behaviorial; they are observable and measurable.

Hope this may be of interest.

iusedtoberich · Jul 9, 2020

IMO, an A player would bet on and beat the 9 ball ghost on loose pocket GC’s. That is the bare minimum for an A. Fargo is about a 650.

A D player is someone who plays at least weekly, and is genuinely interested in pool, but stinks. Won’t beat the 2 ball ghost.

A banger is below a D. It’s the people who play once a month or less on a date or hanging with friends but don’t take pool seriously.

couldnthinkof01 · Jul 9, 2020

D- cue elevated too much
Bridge is poor in all positions
Rhythm is erratic
Stance off balance
A threat to run 3 balls
All offensive shooting
No patterns or forward thought

C- cue still too elevated
Bridge is starting to come together
No rhythm
No p.s.r.
Stance off balance
Looking one ball ahead
Can shoot pretty straight on 7ft.
Can run a rack of 8 or 9 1/50
Learning defense but doesn't have the speed control.

B-solid bridge
Cue is level
Looks at the whole layout
Stance is decent
P.s.r still needs work
Safety play is enough to hide but not to freeze.
Rhythm ok in practice. Erratic under pressure
Might run 30-50 or in 8/9 ball runout 1/6-10

A- everything is pretty solid.
Good enough to play with anyone
Lack the stoke, focus, and/or natural talent
for success at the next level

CocoboloCowboy · Jul 9, 2020

Arizona use to have what they referred to as 'The Arizona Rating Sytem". Player were rated 4 to 10-2. Not sure the system is still used. Most of the Tournment were 8's & 7's and Under.

A "4"might know what end of the Cue gets chalked, a "10-2" o's a Super Pro. The system has a flaw, the people giving the initial rating, can be fooled. Then the "fooler" robs local Tournments, and leaves town.

We don't need no Handicapping System let the Pro play with Pro, let the Amatures fight it out, and get better.

If you over 75 then your a Senior, if you have an AARP Membership Card. No Card you play with the Amatures.

Then we should have a seperate division for Players in Wheelchairs, and a Space Aliens Division. Must show citizenship paper from another galaxy.

ChrisinNC · Jul 9, 2020

The A ranked player can play competitively with the 9 ball ghost and thinks at least 2 balls ahead of the current ball they are shooting at when planning positioning.

The B player plays competitively with the 5/6 ball ghost and generally only thinks one ball ahead of the ball they are currently shooting at when planning positioning.

The C player can play competitively with no more than the 3 ball ghost. They may look at the next ball after the current ball they are shooting it, but they don’t have a good grasp of how to get there or will miss the current ball if they think too much about their positioning for the next shot.

Korsakoff · Jul 9, 2020

couldnthinkof01 said:
D- cue elevated too much
Bridge is poor in all positions
Rhythm is erratic
Stance off balance
A threat to run 3 balls
All offensive shooting
No patterns or forward thought

C- cue still too elevated
Bridge is starting to come together
No rhythm
No p.s.r.
Stance off balance
Looking one ball ahead
Can shoot pretty straight on 7ft.
Can run a rack of 8 or 9 1/50
Learning defense but doesn't have the speed control.

B-solid bridge
Cue is level
Looks at the whole layout
Stance is decent
P.s.r still needs work
Safety play is enough to hide but not to freeze.
Rhythm ok in practice. Erratic under pressure
Might run 30-50 or in 8/9 ball runout 1/6-10

A- everything is pretty solid.
Good enough to play with anyone
Lack the stoke, focus, and/or natural talent
for success at the next level

Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thank you!

deanoc · Jul 9, 2020

what is the purpose of levels

until just recently,i never heard of this

maha · Jul 9, 2020

best to have a straight pool rating.
aa= has had some 100 balls runs and can do it on any lucky day.
a= runs 50 and over
b=25 a big run for him
c= rarely runs an open rack and gets into another one
d= runs 3 to 5 balls if they are open and no trouble
banger = shoots at the easist shot and the cue ball goes where it may

straightline · Jul 9, 2020

maha said:
best to have a straight pool rating.
aa= has had some 100 balls runs and can do it on any lucky day.
a= runs 50 and over
b=25 a big run for him
c= rarely runs an open rack and gets into another one
d= runs 3 to 5 balls if they are open and no trouble
banger = shoots at the easist shot and the cue ball goes where it may

This is as close to any criteria for those letter systems used in amateur leagues and pre Fargo opens. Pool is otherwise too vast for this wroter to sort out.

There's the technical part - which is either trade secrets - or fish to predatorial shark is sufficient
There's the intellectual part which most jocks will default to the technical part and the magic of their wits. Oh, and the stakes...

Korsakoff · Jul 9, 2020

Qualifying Note: Asking about “typical” observable playing ability. Good matchups may influence up or down. Action influences play. Looking for AZB views of characteristics of arbitrary grades related to levels of play.

sixpack · Jul 9, 2020

Everybody I can’t beat is an asshole.
Everybody I can beat is a chump.

Korsakoff · Jul 9, 2020

Qualifying Note. I think you can use “Action” in a definition of Grade. For example, an “A” player may play the same or better with reasonable action.

You might also say a “B” player chokes with action. Or, a ”B” player improves with action.

Just trying to get an overall view/consensus, if such a thing exists. I’ll summarize responses if there is enough data.

Geosnooker · Jul 10, 2020

I look at natural ability and potential. It quickly outstrips everything else. At one extreme is Ronnie O’Sullivan making centuries at age 14 or Tiger Woods making par at about the same age. Both would have excelled in each other’s sport.

I’ve always been good at sports. Never played formal soccer before we moved to Germany when 15...made our city’s ‘under 18’ team by age 17. However, then I was up against even ‘more’ naturally gifted players.

The point? Levels means nothing depending on the individual. A non runner can go from a 9 to a 5 minute mile in six months if a natural athlete. Same with billiards. Higher end players aren’t going to improve much after 5 years if they have been playing on a regular basis. We tend to gain in table smarts rather than technical skill.

Anyways. I don’t care about levels but rather potential.

If nobody in your high school class had ever picked up a ping pong racquet, you would still know who the best players are going to be before even playing. All being at level ‘zero‘ means nothing. If some nerdy girls had played for 3 months and now at level ‘two’...they’d still be beat by the star basketball player after his first hour of play.

Texas Carom Club · Jul 10, 2020

maha said:
best to have a straight pool rating.
aa= has had some 100 balls runs and can do it on any lucky day.
a= runs 50 and over
b=25 a big run for him
c= rarely runs an open rack and gets into another one
d= runs 3 to 5 balls if they are open and no trouble
banger = shoots at the easist shot and the cue ball goes where it may

then im a solid b i guess

Nine ... corner · Jul 10, 2020

sixpack said:
Everybody I can’t beat is an asshole.
Everybody I can beat is a chump.

That's the ticket!

Mkindsv · Jul 10, 2020

Here is what I think about skill levels.

I would expect an A level player to get out regardless of which ball he starts on 50% of the time or better. I would also consider someone who doesn't run racks but plays good enough defense that they win 70% of their games on this level as well.

I would consider someone a B level player if they win over 50% of their games, play sufficient defense to win about half of the mental battles and doesn't miss a lot of shots that should be made (3-4 a set)

A C level player stays in matches but loses alot because of poor strategy and or position play, maybe hits the balls a little too hard, maybe doesn't have the best stroke or solid fundamentals Would say a 40% game winner, but loses a bunch of the sets due to pressure or other factors.

A D Player is entry level, you are asking about players, to classify them as a player they have to be playing with some regularity and are slowly improving. A D player will occasionally beat a C but will not generally beat anyone else in a match that goes much past a race to 3, and will be 30-70 to do so against a C.

We all worry alot about these levels, but it takes some of the fun out of the game. Sometimes not knowing what your opponent is capable of will make you play your best game trying to keep them off the table, also sometimes knowing you are going up against a monster will dishearten you and maybe you won't play your best game because you are not "Supposed" to win. I will say, I have hung with and beaten a LOT of players that fargo says I should be 10% against...then I have lost to people I had no business losing to as well.

sjm · Jul 10, 2020

couldnthinkof01 said:
D- cue elevated too much
Bridge is poor in all positions
Rhythm is erratic
Stance off balance
A threat to run 3 balls
All offensive shooting
No patterns or forward thought

C- cue still too elevated
Bridge is starting to come together
No rhythm
No p.s.r.
Stance off balance
Looking one ball ahead
Can shoot pretty straight on 7ft.
Can run a rack of 8 or 9 1/50
Learning defense but doesn't have the speed control.

B-solid bridge
Cue is level
Looks at the whole layout
Stance is decent
P.s.r still needs work
Safety play is enough to hide but not to freeze.
Rhythm ok in practice. Erratic under pressure
Might run 30-50 or in 8/9 ball runout 1/6-10

A- everything is pretty solid.
Good enough to play with anyone
Lack the stoke, focus, and/or natural talent
for success at the next level

Wow, this is a pretty solid assessment. Nice job!

I'd say a marginal A player is Fargo 630, an average A is Fargo 650 and a strong A is more like Fargo 675.

TATE · Jul 10, 2020

Here's my definition, but of course there are shades in every group:

A player - shows all signs of expertise at the table. They make most routine shots, many difficult shots and have a superior control of cue ball angle and speed. They exhibit knowledge, finesse and skill in all phases of the game. They are favored to run open tables in 9 ball, 8 ball and straight pool, miss infrequently and control both offense and defense during their inning. They make good decisions at the table in choosing offense, defense or two way shots. At this level, the differences between A players are primarily determined by number of mistakes at the table. These players will be APA 7's in 8 ball and APA 8 or 9 in 9 ball. They play well on any size table. Is favored to beat the BIH 9 ball ghost on a 9 foot table in a race to 11.

B Player - a skilled player but not an expert player. They are an excellent shotmaker with has decent cue ball control but doesn't have the cue ball mastery and safety skills of the A player. They are not favored to run any full rack open table due to missed shots, cue ball control mistakes and weaker pattern play. They are learning the safety game but lack the speed control to execute very effective safeties. These are your APA 6's in 8 ball and APA 7's in 9 ball. They can play well on a small table but their weaknesses really show up on 9 foot tables. Occasionally beats the 9 ball ghost on a 9 foot table.

C Player - this is your average competent pool player who can pocket balls but lacks cue ball control and knowledge. Makes a lot of mistakes and has limited game knowledge. You can walk into any bar and find them playing for drinks. These are your APA 4's and 5's in 8 ball and are usually casual players, preferring bar tables. Doesn't beat the 9 ball ghost in a race to 11 on any size table.

D Player - beginners and clearly less coordinated at the table - anything below a C player.

ChrisinNC · Jul 10, 2020

TATE said:
Here's my definition, but of course there are shades in every group:

A player - shows all signs of expertise at the table. They make most routine shots, many difficult shots and have a superior control of cue ball angle and speed. They exhibit knowledge, finesse and skill in all phases of the game. They are favored to run open tables in 9 ball, 8 ball and straight pool, miss infrequently and control both offense and defense during their inning. They make good decisions at the table in choosing offense, defense or two way shots. At this level, the differences between A players are primarily determined by number of mistakes at the table. These players will be APA 7's in 8 ball and APA 8 or 9 in 9 ball. They play well on any size table. Is favored to beat the BIH 9 ball ghost on a 9 foot table in a race to 11.

B Player - a skilled player but not an expert player. They are an excellent shotmaker with has decent cue ball control but doesn't have the cue ball mastery and safety skills of the A player. They are not favored to run any full rack open table due to missed shots, cue ball control mistakes and weaker pattern play. They are learning the safety game but lack the speed control to execute very effective safeties. These are your APA 6's in 8 ball and APA 7's in 9 ball. They can play well on a small table but their weaknesses really show up on 9 foot tables. Occasionally beats the 9 ball ghost on a 9 foot table.

C Player - this is your average competent pool player who can pocket balls but lacks cue ball control and knowledge. Makes a lot of mistakes and has limited game knowledge. You can walk into any bar and find them playing for drinks. These are your APA 4's and 5's in 8 ball and are usually casual players, preferring bar tables. Doesn't beat the 9 ball ghost in a race to 11 on any size table.

D Player - beginners and clearly less coordinated at the table - anything below a C player.

In our pool room, a B Player could never beat or even be competitive vs the 9-ball ghost in a long race. We do have tighter than standard pocket tables, which I guess has a lot to do with that in comparison to your assessment of a B player.

dr_dave · Jul 10, 2020

Korsakoff said:
Forget Fargo references.

Omit professional players and how you would define them.

Think your local poolroom, or perhaps even regional great rooms reasonably within your area. Some of you are knowledgeable Nationally, and should you choose to respond, please use that knowledge.

If you are relatively new to the game or consider yourself as a “casual player” (whatever that is), then I’d prefer you read rather than contribute.

So, I’d be curious as to how some of the experienced minds here on AZB might define levels of players. (I did do a search across all forums for “level of players”; I read 5 pages and Page 10 and did not see something similar.)

Let’s set the basic rating Grades: A-B-C-D. Let’s assume that a “D” player is a player interested enough to be into pool. Might be a league player, more into it for the social aspect. Let’s assume an “A” player references some bad-ass AZB members as well as those in the shadows. Difficult to set the upper/lower limits, or I would not be asking the question.

So, rather than argue about the loose guidelines, if you are so inclined, please post the level grade and your definition. The best definitions are behaviorial; they are observable and measurable.

Hope this may be of interest.

FYI, lots of definitions of the ABCD ratings (from different sources and people), along with comparisons to other systems, can be found here:

ABCD Player Rating System

Enjoy,
Dave

YOUR Definition of Player Levels

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