The REAL problem with pool

Jerry Forsyth

Well-known member
OK, so let's go through some stats. According to the annual Sporting Goods Association Player Participation poll the number of pool players in America is decreasing by an annual rate of about 10%. Their survey says that in 2005 about 39 million Americans classed themselves as pool players. In 2012 that number dropped all the way down to 21 million.

Are there any corollaries? Oh, yes. That 10% drop is about what we lose in poolrooms each year. People who do not have a place to play pool cannot be pool players.

Many pool players are middle aged or above. Some of us remember paying 10 cents a rack to play pool and 25 cents for each beer. So $6 per stick per hour and $4 per beer seems a bit steep. But it is in line with inflation and the fact is that those 10 cent poolrooms were profitable and the ones today are struggling. (At the same time a golf green fee back then was $2 and nobody complains today when they pay $80 or more.)

So the basic problem is keeping poolrooms alive. If they all die the game dies with them.

Room owners I talk to say they need to generate a little bit of profit from many different areas to stay open. A bit from the pool tables, a bit from the jukebox, a bit from the kitchen, a bit from the video games, a bit from the bar and a bit from the leagues.

But some rooms have hit on ways to do much better than the average. Reed Pierce set his room apart with a great lunch menu. It is so good that he had to hire folks to do delivery of all the take-out orders he began getting.

Phil Wyndham (I think I butchered that spelling) of the Chattanooga Billiard Club opened a cigar and brandy section.

So those who think creatively are doing pretty well with their rooms.

If you know of other formulas that work for rooms, tell us about them. We really do need to breathe some life into the foundation of pool, the poolroom.

(Another problem is that action no longer brings spectators to poolrooms in large numbers. Now that the average American lives 2 hours or less away from a casino the casinos have captured the action that was once the property of the corner poolroom.)
 

Masirib5

Klaatu barada nikto
Silver Member
I think pool rooms close because when their lease runs out, the landlord raised the rent and that breaks the bank. I don't think you can just keep raising the hourly rates. If you love pool and play several hours a day, it is real costly at $10 per hour in today's economy.

--Jeff
 

Jerry Forsyth

Well-known member
Yes, the economy is a serious part of the issue. But the pool decline began four years before the recession began.

What I would like to hear are good ideas. If you owned a poolroom what would you do to set yourself apart and to attract customers?

Has anyone seen a failing poolroom do a turnaround? How did they do it?
 

Masirib5

Klaatu barada nikto
Silver Member
Maybe find failing pool rooms and help them with the collective ideas to help them out from AZ members on a case by case basis.

There are so many people here that know everything about anything.

--Jeff
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The day a juke box entered a pool room was the beginning of the downfall of the game. Only the very young can tolerate the variety of loud music that juke boxes spit out. So with a juke box, you've just kicked out half your pool playing population. The same goes for video games. They only work if they're in a contained area well away from the playing area.

A big part of the problem is in fact, that pool room owners are trying to squeeze out profits from too many sources. Pool tables, a bar, and leagues, with control over the music depending on the time of day and day of the week are a formula that I've seen work.

Management has to be hands-on. They can't just open their doors and then come back later to pick up the cash. They have to put themselves in the mix with their customers and find out what works and what isn't working.

Decent fast food helps as well. I think a full blown restaurant and all the headaches that go with it isn't necessary.
 
Last edited:

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, so let's go through some stats. According to the annual Sporting Goods Association Player Participation poll the number of pool players in America is decreasing by an annual rate of about 10%. Their survey says that in 2005 about 39 million Americans classed themselves as pool players. In 2012 that number dropped all the way down to 21 million.

Are there any corollaries? Oh, yes. That 10% drop is about what we lose in poolrooms each year. People who do not have a place to play pool cannot be pool players.

Many pool players are middle aged or above. Some of us remember paying 10 cents a rack to play pool and 25 cents for each beer. So $6 per stick per hour and $4 per beer seems a bit steep. But it is in line with inflation and the fact is that those 10 cent poolrooms were profitable and the ones today are struggling. (At the same time a golf green fee back then was $2 and nobody complains today when they pay $80 or more.)

So the basic problem is keeping poolrooms alive. If they all die the game dies with them.

Room owners I talk to say they need to generate a little bit of profit from many different areas to stay open. A bit from the pool tables, a bit from the jukebox, a bit from the kitchen, a bit from the video games, a bit from the bar and a bit from the leagues.

But some rooms have hit on ways to do much better than the average. Reed Pierce set his room apart with a great lunch menu. It is so good that he had to hire folks to do delivery of all the take-out orders he began getting.

Phil Wyndham (I think I butchered that spelling) of the Chattanooga Billiard Club opened a cigar and brandy section.

So those who think creatively are doing pretty well with their rooms.

If you know of other formulas that work for rooms, tell us about them. We really do need to breathe some life into the foundation of pool, the poolroom.

(Another problem is that action no longer brings spectators to poolrooms in large numbers. Now that the average American lives 2 hours or less away from a casino the casinos have captured the action that was once the property of the corner poolroom.)

Don't worry the coming Earl Bio , MC and the Media is swooping in to save the day LOL

Locally 2 places tried to have a small 9 ball turny , they could only get a handful of players. So they instead decided to do a weekly Poker turney and its standing room only
One place does a pong turny that also goes over big , Karaoke also does really well
These are all low cost higher profit yields to owners
Pool is a tough business you need a lot of Sq footage and the cost is high , investors solely looking for profit aren't looking to pool to do that , it takes someone with deep pockets and a love for the game and there getting fewer and farther in between

1
 

Jimbojim

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I owned a pool room, I'd offer some type of membership to players who are serious about their game. Not necessarily restricted to the players practicing to win the US Open but everybody who likes the game and likes to play often, from the retired men to the serious tournament player with a dream and everyone in between. I'd make them pay a fixed amount and he'd be able to play for free for a year and have discounts on beverages and food over the other customers.

I'd try to find a way so kids can come and learn the game if they are accompanied by their parents in the opening hours on the weekend. I'd also make a section of my poolroom quieter so people who wants to practice seriously don't have to endure the loud music and other people who have abused alcohol. I'd try to get involved with leagues and associations that organize tournaments.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think pool rooms close because when their lease runs out, the landlord raised the rent and that breaks the bank. I don't think you can just keep raising the hourly rates. If you love pool and play several hours a day, it is real costly at $10 per hour in today's economy.

--Jeff


Here in St. Louis I know of at least two pool rooms that experienced having their rents jacked up so high that continuing the venture was no longer reasonable.

Lou Figueroa
 

Diamond69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, I'll start out by saying I know nothing about TV deals. Who pays what and how it gets on TV.

The "Rescue" shows are expanding. There are several restaurant rescue shows, then Bar Rescue came aboard. Now there is a new Tattoo parlor rescue (really?).

So it's time for Pool Hall Rescue. We have a poolroom expert here in CJ who has a TV presence and could be the expert to travel to these halls.

He can get himself a Mixologist expert, a chef expert, and even a table mechanic to go into a failing room and remake it.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I don't think a poolroom can be profitable in many areas of the U.S. Almost any low rent area today does not have the population with enough pool players in it and low rent means very bad area in most cases. So IMO the rent is the #1 reason poolrooms close. #2 IMO the leagues have really hurt the small poolroom. #3 Just too many other things to do today for the young adult.

There are not enough real pool players (play everyday 4-8 hours) left have just a just pool poolroom. I know everyone gets tired of hearing we need a pool movie that is a blockbuster and showing making pool cool. The last boom in pool was after the COM came out, and the pool industry dogged it on that.

Jerry is right, the true pool players average age is almost seniors now, and not enough of them to support many rooms. In most cases the poolrooms/sports bars that are doing well the pool tables are a sideshow and play a very small part of their profit.

There are just so many negatives to poolrooms right now that I don't think the flood of closing can be stopped w/o a major movie and/or a hit TV show with the theme around pool. Maybe something like a private detective that plays and owns/plays out of a poolroom.

Have to find away to get kids and young adults into pool and that's not going to be easy with all the other things to do today. I'm sorry, I just don't see the slide in pool stopping w/o a perfect storm of the things above happening.

When I had my 9 table room on Long Island, NY in the 1960's rent was $120 a month, and that was on a major road in a town with plenty of money and people. My one front table had 4 players playing money ball for 12 hours a day 365 days a year. It more than paid for the nut and the other 8 tables were all profit.

Sorry for being so negative, but I don't see anything in the near future that would give pool the shot in the arm it needs. Johnnyt
 
Last edited:

Diamond69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I owned a pool room, I'd offer some type of membership to players who are serious about their game. Not necessarily restricted to the players practicing to win the US Open but everybody who likes the game and likes to play often, from the retired men to the serious tournament player with a dream and everyone in between. I'd make them pay a fixed amount and he'd be able to play for free for a year and have discounts on beverages and food over the other customers.

I'd try to find a way so kids can come and learn the game if they are accompanied by their parents in the opening hours on the weekend. I'd also make a section of my poolroom quieter so people who wants to practice seriously don't have to endure the loud music and other people who have abused alcohol. I'd try to get involved with leagues and associations that organize tournaments.

The membership idea is a good one. You could do weekly, monthly, or yearly. Believe it or not, there are some pool room players that can afford to put up a yearly membership. For the ones who can't, they can do a weekly or monthly.

Your 2nd idea needs to be shouted from the rooftops! Every room owner needs to go out there and market themselves to the community and get a kids league going. It brings in revenue and grows the game.

I was down in Decatur, Ill for a state tournament and a few of us went to a local pool hall (don't remember the name). They had a kids league and it was wonderful to see the kids playing each other. Meanwhile, the parents watched and purchased drinks, lunch, etc. I wish every pool hall could do this.
 

thintowin

thin2win
Silver Member
which recession? there have been 3-4 since 1980 and real income has stayed the same while everything and i mean everything has increased price wise. bring back good paying jobs and the pool world will explode.
 

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That indeed is a sad statistics. Their numbers are seriously dwindling. We can only ensure the survival of pool rooms for so long.

I've wondered how are the pool rooms in houston doing? Huge city, I would imagine the top 3-4 rooms should have plenty of people playing.
 

MoneyBox

I throw putters.
Silver Member
The real problem with pool is that the general public does not go to an establishment to play pool. They may play pool if they are already there, but they are not going with the intent to just play pool. That is why there has to be all this other crap in pool rooms.

Golf is more thought of as a recreational pastime than pool. For the general public, pool is nothing more than a game you play when you are bored in a bar.

The way most people view pool is the same way I view bean bags. I only play at backyard BBQs or occasionally at a bar if a game starts. I haven't seen a business or establishment whose sole source of income is bean bags...although a lot of bars offer bean bags. To the general public...pool is the same way.

Maybe it's time we stop trying to make pool as popular as golf, football, baseball, etc. and just accept it for what it is and just enjoy it.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The membership idea is a good one. You could do weekly, monthly, or yearly. Believe it or not, there are some pool room players that can afford to put up a yearly membership. For the ones who can't, they can do a weekly or monthly.

Your 2nd idea needs to be shouted from the rooftops! Every room owner needs to go out there and market themselves to the community and get a kids league going. It brings in revenue and grows the game.

I was down in Decatur, Ill for a state tournament and a few of us went to a local pool hall (don't remember the name). They had a kids league and it was wonderful to see the kids playing each other. Meanwhile, the parents watched and purchased drinks, lunch, etc. I wish every pool hall could do this.

There is a great room that has a membership, but it's an hour away from me. I'd love to go play there once or twice a month, but I am not going to pay a membership for a place I won't get to. A membership is good, if the people that go there are local, or don't mind a two hour round trip drive ever few days.

The Billiards Cafe in Ayer, MA I play in has supported kids leagues, and every league that was there. There is a full room there with league players Mon, We, Th, Tuesday there is a 8-16 person tournament, and Sunday is the kids league. The owner even bought a 7' Diamond table for the league players to practice on since that is what the BCA used in their league finals. There is also a large mix of people that go there, including lots of women, there is a women's league in the place, and has everyone from a 16 yr old to several grandmothers and everyone in between playing. Fundraisers that get put on are always filled. Don't know exaclty what he does to keep things going, but I've never seen such a varried mix of poeple hanging out together.

Our kids over at Jr Nationals in July.

557886_582619651789957_1418822189_n.jpg


People on the room

553999_459921904059733_824734672_n.jpg
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think a poolroom can be profitable in many areas of the U.S. Almost any low rent area today does not have the population with enough pool players in it and low rent means very bad area in most cases. So IMO the rent is the #1 reason poolrooms close. #2 IMO the leagues have really hurt the small poolroom. #3 Just too many other things to do today for the young adult.

There are not enough real pool players (play everyday 4-8 hours) left have just a just pool poolroom. I know everyone gets tired of hearing we need a pool movie that is a blockbuster and showing making pool cool. The last boom in pool was after the COM came out, and the pool industry dogged it on that.

Jerry is right, the true pool players average age is almost seniors now, and not enough of them to support many rooms. In most cases the poolrooms/sports bars that are doing well the pool tables are a sideshow and play a very small part of their profit.

There are just so many negatives to poolrooms right now that I don't think the flood of closing can be stopped w/o a major movie and/or a hit TV show with the theme around pool. Maybe something like a private detective that plays and owns/plays out of a poolroom.

Have to find away to get kids and young adults into pool and that's not going to be easy with all the other things to do today. I'm sorry, I just don't see the slide in pool stopping w/o a perfect storm of the things above happening.

When I had my 9 table room on Long Island, NY in the 1960's rent was $120 a month, and that was on a major road in a town with plenty of money and people. My one front table had 4 players playing money ball for 12 hours a day 365 days a year. It more than paid for the nut and the other 8 tables were all profit.

Sorry for being so negative, but I don't see anything in the near future that would give pool the shot in the arm it needs. Johnnyt

Totally agree with you Johnny. Prices are too high for anyone other than the wealthy to spend any time practicing or playing. We used to start playing in the evening, and often wouldn't quit until the next morning or afternoon. Prices haven't kept up with pay scales.

Also, I know there are many on here that think leagues are the savior of pool. Actually, in reality, they are the death toll of pool. We had three rooms here. One was all leagues, they are now closed. Had no profit at all. Second room just took out half the tables to put in other games. They were also geared towards the leagues. They found out that is a great way to go broke. Third room put in a restaurant in half the room and a bar to stay alive. They are doing great on that part, zilch on the pool part.

We have over 200 league teams in this area. Local tournaments that were not league sanctioned would rarely draw even 16 people! And usually, half of what we did have was from out of town.

For pool rooms to survive, you need a steady base of customers. You need people that actually love to play pool. Gamblers were a great source of that. They would be practicing if they weren't in a game, always striving to get better.

Leagues have taught people that it is bad to gamble. They have put a false notion in all their heads. They have also taught people to not practice. If they do, their handicap will go up, and then they have to find a new team. They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement.

To top it off, pool is a singular game, always has been. That is the real beauty of the game. It's just you and what you can do. It forces a mindset of improvement upon you that correlates to all aspects of your life.

Leagues have robbed the people of that aspect. It now no longer is a singular game, but a team game. If you fail, so what, your teammates can pick up the slack. That attitude is why with 200 teams in this area, outside of their required match play, you never see any of them in the pool room.

I have essentially stopped teaching because of the leagues. I got tired of people being upset with me because they took lessons and now their handicap went up and they had to find another team. Ridiculous! The whole league mentality is counter to what the game is actually about. Sure, there are the few exceptions in the league system that actually do think properly about pool, that do actually see the real beauty in the game, and that do actually constantly strive to improve. But, they are the exception, not the norm. Pool rooms can't survive on exceptions. They need a lot of the norm to survive.
 

Pushout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Totally agree with you Johnny. Prices are too high for anyone other than the wealthy to spend any time practicing or playing. We used to start playing in the evening, and often wouldn't quit until the next morning or afternoon. Prices haven't kept up with pay scales.

Also, I know there are many on here that think leagues are the savior of pool. Actually, in reality, they are the death toll of pool. We had three rooms here. One was all leagues, they are now closed. Had no profit at all. Second room just took out half the tables to put in other games. They were also geared towards the leagues. They found out that is a great way to go broke. Third room put in a restaurant in half the room and a bar to stay alive. They are doing great on that part, zilch on the pool part.

We have over 200 league teams in this area. Local tournaments that were not league sanctioned would rarely draw even 16 people! And usually, half of what we did have was from out of town.

For pool rooms to survive, you need a steady base of customers. You need people that actually love to play pool. Gamblers were a great source of that. They would be practicing if they weren't in a game, always striving to get better.

Leagues have taught people that it is bad to gamble. They have put a false notion in all their heads. They have also taught people to not practice. If they do, their handicap will go up, and then they have to find a new team. They have zero reward for improvement, actually get penalized for improvement.

To top it off, pool is a singular game, always has been. That is the real beauty of the game. It's just you and what you can do. It forces a mindset of improvement upon you that correlates to all aspects of your life.

Leagues have robbed the people of that aspect. It now no longer is a singular game, but a team game. If you fail, so what, your teammates can pick up the slack. That attitude is why with 200 teams in this area, outside of their required match play, you never see any of them in the pool room.

I have essentially stopped teaching because of the leagues. I got tired of people being upset with me because they took lessons and now their handicap went up and they had to find another team. Ridiculous! The whole league mentality is counter to what the game is actually about. Sure, there are the few exceptions in the league system that actually do think properly about pool, that do actually see the real beauty in the game, and that do actually constantly strive to improve. But, they are the exception, not the norm. Pool rooms can't survive on exceptions. They need a lot of the norm to survive.

Somewhat sadly, I have to agree with you, Neil. Leagues should be good for pool but are not. In my experience, you have to be both a business person and a player. And, by player I mean someone that knows and understands the game, not just someone who plays pool. I've seen people who were one and not the other and their rooms folded. Back in NYS where I played for about 25 years there just aren't enough regular players to support the rooms. There were no new {read young} players when we visited in 2011 and we had been gone 14 years. We went to two rooms and the players were the same ones, just less of them.
I just don't know.
 
Top