Was Ralph Greenleaf the GOAT?

If there is anybody who witnessed Ralph Greenleaf playing in the 30s or 40s....
....I wanna know his diet....

kkdanamatt said:

Ralph Greenleaf probably was at the peak of his game and his fame in the 1930's. My father saw him play an exhibition in NYC and said there was never anyone better.
Question: is there anyone on AZB who witnessed Greenleaf's play during the 1930's or 1940's? If so, would you care to comment?
I saw Mosconi play after his heart attack in the late '50s and early '60s and he was the best I've ever seen, but I never saw him play in real competiton.

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Her's a lil taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ADMkiNOh4

Not sure if he is the GOAT or not. Definitely one of the greatest. I believe the GOAT hasn't been born yet, but that is another conversation all together. The real question is did you see all of the chalk on the table?

Bob Jewett said:

This clip gives some hope of finding an eyewitness, but they would have been very young at the time -- like the person in the clip -- and probably not really serious about pool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RPoymt3Jx4

20 in 1945 = 94 today

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Wow...the questioning was spot on. Amazing.

I have discussed this with Charlie Ursitti, who was Mosconi's manager. Statistically, Charlie offered, Mosconi produced more one inning games than Greenleaf, but he also offered that Greenleaf had more games of two innings or less than Willie. I've met more than a few over the years who watched both play, and it's nearly too close to call, but the feeling is that Mosconi had a very small edge. Noone who thinks Greenleaf was the greatest ever is out of line, however.

Players of Greenleaf's era are largely forgotten. Believe it or not, there was a woman straight pooler whose speed was about the same as that of Jean Balukas. Her name was Ruth McGinnis and Irvng Crane told me that she beat Greenleaf on more than one occasion in exhibition matches and that the two of them toured together. If my memory serves, her high run on a 5 x 10 was in the 130's, a pretty tidy accomplishment that few women who've ever played pool could hope to approach.

Greenleaf or Mosconi? McGinnis or Balukas? These are very hard comparisons for anyone to make.

... but it's still fun to try.

PS Ruth's 130 on a 5 x 10 has no confirmation, but she did run 125 in competition on a 9 footer and an 85 on a ten footer according to her writeup on the BCA HOF page.

kkdanamatt said:

Ask Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter, born February 1928.

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Funny, I just realized we’re having a birthday dinner for an old friend next Saturday...
...he’ll be 92...
He’s got a snooker background...wouldn’t know much about Ralph Greenleaf....
...but I’m going to ask him.

Bob Jewett said:

There are some other clips of him shooting (or trying to shoot) trick shots. Hard to see how he really plays from those.

This clip was clearly staged but I think you get a good idea of his form and mechanics.

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In '37 he beat Crane and i think the guy in this clip is Rudolph. He beat RG in '26. Facts via Wiki not my amazing memory.

When asked if he was better than Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi said he was. The difference was that Greenleaf was a master of "two foot position" while Mosconi perfected "one foot position"

Seeing some of the videos from yesteryear, I am inclined to agree with Willie

ideologist said:

When asked if he was better than Greenleaf, Willie Mosconi said he was. The difference was that Greenleaf was a master of "two foot position" while Mosconi perfected "one foot position"

Seeing some of the videos from yesteryear, I am inclined to agree with Willie

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On a side note, based on what i've heard/read RG was probably just a tad more fun to hang-out with.

isnt harold worst the greatest??

bbb said:

isnt harold worst the greatest??

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Only if by Harold Worst, you mean Efren Reyes.

Sorry to rain on the nostalgia parade, but when did Efren become chopped-liver?

Without all the video documentation, Efren would be spoken of with Paul Bunyan 50 years from now.

I am old enough (74) to have met many players who knew and played against Greenleaf and Mosconi. Crane, Caras, Procita, Rood and many old time hustlers like Hubert Cokes, Marcel Camp and UJ Puckett were still alive and kicking in the 60's, and playing pool. To a man, when asked the greatest pool player they had ever seen the answer was ALWAYS Greenleaf without hesitation! Most of the old timers had some level of contempt for Mosconi for one reason or another.

Again my story is anecdotal and I have no first hand knowledge of their relative skills, but I do clearly remember what they had to say about both men. In my lifetime the best Straight Pool player I ever saw was Mosconi, with Mizerak a close second and Sigel third.

jay helfert said:

I am old enough (74) to have met many players who knew and played against Greenleaf and Mosconi. Crane, Caras, Procita, Rood and many old time hustlers like Hubert Cokes, Marcel Camp and UJ Puckett were still alive and kicking in the 60's, and playing pool. To a man, when asked the greatest pool player they had ever seen the answer was ALWAYS Greenleaf without hesitation! Most of the old timers had some level of contempt for Mosconi for one reason or another.

Again my story is anecdotal and I have no first hand knowledge of their relative skills, but I do clearly remember what they had to say about both men. In my lifetime the best Straight Pool player I ever saw was Mosconi, with Mizerak a close second and Sigel third.

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Hey, Jay; where would you put Harold Worst & Don Willis in that list?

Bob Jewett said:

Here is some more info on McGinnis from her HOF item:

View attachment 517121

I believe that a tournament run of 125 is still the record for a woman at least in the US.

It's too bad that our sport doesn't keep track of records much.

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Thanks for that, Bob. As noted, my offering was second hand --- she's simply before my time.

Ruth has always been something of a mystery to me. I recall hearing about her 125 ball run but per Irving Crane she ran more than that away from competition. Even if she did, it's the 125 that counts for posterity.

Based on the info you've provided, she obviously was a true great.

Thanks for the education.

Bob Jewett said:

Here is some more info on McGinnis from her HOF item:

View attachment 517121

I believe that a tournament run of 125 is still the record for a woman at least in the US.

It's too bad that our sport doesn't keep track of records much.

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i found a video of Ruth shooting trick shots.
left handed and a great stroke.