Pocket size question

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My 1974 Brunswick Windsor 8 ft table (44x88) needs a new cloth, wondering about pockets. If I measure with caliper, two of the corner pockets measure about 4.9 inches and two measure about 5.1 inches. Would you say these are 5 inch pockets? This is measured tip to tip of the cushions.

If I place two balls like this guy is doing below, it appears to be a little over .75 inches between the balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG9CqK95U2E

My side pockets, with caliper, measured as above, measure about 5.6 inches tip to tip.

Is this "normal" or "too lenient" or just what for home table use by casual players? (We shoot from time to time in a local bar with a bar box 7 ft table and none of us are expert, just decent.)

Could the tech guy make the pockets narrower pretty easily? Would you do that or leave them alone? At this time, I plan on putting Simonis 360HR on it.

(Gotta find a tech guy, the guy who was recommended to me did not call when he said he would, to schedule the job; unless he got hurt or something, it appears he has forgotten about me, as that was about three weeks ago).
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Most tables are 4.5”. I would say 5” is too wide. You’ll make balls at home that you’ll miss anywhere else. Tighter pockets teach you that you can’t get away with bad fundamentals. Some people challenge themselves with pro-cut (4.25”) and some masochists like tighter yer (4.125”). But if you go too tight you might lose some of the fun.


Respectfully, Matt
(I don’t take myself too seriously. I hope you can return the favor.)
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
true but wide pockets makes the game fun for others. and others do play with you at times. also you can cheat the pockets alot and learn position tricks that you never get at tight pockets although those that play on tight pockets all the time think they do have those tricks.

just shoot for center of pocket and it doesnt matter if its tight or not. so what if they fall more easily at home for you.
 

Sedog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is reducing by 1/2 inch problematic when reclothed, costly?

No standard pockets are 5”, the mechanic just adds 1/4” shims to each side of the pockets, extending the rails by the quarter inch. Shims are not that expensive.
 

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No standard pockets are 5”, the mechanic just adds 1/4” shims to each side of the pockets, extending the rails by the quarter inch. Shims are not that expensive.

Thanks. Let me ask... is using shims the way that pocket size is built from the getgo or do they do it differently (without shims) if they want, in this instance, 4.5 inch pockets?
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My advice is DO NOT change the pocket size. 4 1/2 inch pockets were never meant to be on home recreational tables nor were they on professional tournament tables until some idiots thought they knew better than what had been a standard for over 100 years. The game is MUCH more enjoyable with larger pockets- especially for all your home visitors. MOST of these people on this site who beg for 4 1/2 inch pockets or less are mostly dreamers in terms of their true billiard skills- most but perhaps the top 5% players in the world. With 50 years of extensive billiard experience at every level of play- I urge you NOT to listen to anyone who recommends smaller pockets for your table - you will regret a change that will be costly to reverse once your table is set up that way. UNLESS you want to end up NOT really feeling like playing anymore due to frustration - remember, you are just trying to have FUN!
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
My 1974 Brunswick Windsor 8 ft table (44x88) needs a new cloth, wondering about pockets. If I measure with caliper, two of the corner pockets measure about 4.9 inches and two measure about 5.1 inches. Would you say these are 5 inch pockets? This is measured tip to tip of the cushions.

If I place two balls like this guy is doing below, it appears to be a little over .75 inches between the balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG9CqK95U2E

My side pockets, with caliper, measured as above, measure about 5.6 inches tip to tip.

Is this "normal" or "too lenient" or just what for home table use by casual players? (We shoot from time to time in a local bar with a bar box 7 ft table and none of us are expert, just decent.)

Could the tech guy make the pockets narrower pretty easily? Would you do that or leave them alone? At this time, I plan on putting Simonis 360HR on it.

(Gotta find a tech guy, the guy who was recommended to me did not call when he said he would, to schedule the job; unless he got hurt or something, it appears he has forgotten about me, as that was about three weeks ago).

This is a forum with many hard core players. Some of those players are going to recommend you reduce your pocket size WAY down. They're going to make all sorts of fanciful claims about how much it's going to improve you as a player. The below points are made regarding much tighter pockets than your 4.5 inch potential pockets. However, if you are not very good they may still apply. In general, you probably won't suffer the worst consequences with a small change like you want and outline in your post.

Here are the benefits of very tight pockets as I see them, they all apply to advanced players.:
1. If your technique is allready rock solid, it will help you fine tune your accuracy to a higher level. However, personally, I think the pockets need to be super tight to really have a good effect, snooker match table tight, Chinese 8 ball table tight (what I'm currently playing on). 5 inch to 4.5 is going to have a neglible effect.
2. It will teach you the value of perfect position (if you have the capability to use that knowledge).
3. It will teach you consistency in pre shot routine (if you have the knowledge to understand how to fix the correct things. Sadly, more usually it makes players neurotic and encourage rain-dance like random behaviours, because when the technique isn't good enough, the makes are more random than skillful. A player can start bobbing up and down, taking too many practise strokes etc etc..because they did it once and happened to make a couple of tough shots in a row.)

Here are the drawbacks of tighter tables (approaching 4 inches or less), which sadly will be much more prevalent than the above advantages:
1. It will make you less likely to run balls, which will make you frustrated and bored.
2. If your technique is not good enough, you will start holding back your stroke and playing passively.
3. It will slow you down.
4. If you are in an early state of playing development, you may never experiment with and learn advanced power shots, so you risk not learning those.
5. More dry breaks (boring)
6. You risk too much "cinching" in your game, rather than stroking shots with the correct english, you hit it with your preferred english for making the ball. This is bad and can cripple your long term development.

My experience with players who are not very strong who play on tight tables is that they tend to play slowly, defensively, hold back their strokes and poke at the ball. They also get a false view of their own ability, because they play on tougher tables. If you haven't run 3 racks in a row within the last couple of months, the table you're playing on is probably too tough for you. If you can't run 3 racks on 5 inch pockets, then continue practising until you can, fairly regularly. Only then should you consider tighter pockets.

There is no magic shortcut in playing on tighter pockets. The only "shortcut" you can take, is practising proper technique. If you just want to have fun with your friends, keep the pockets at their current size and try to run more racks. It's much more rewarding than running 2 balls and missing over and over on ultra tight pockets.
 
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Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you are serious minded and want to play better, then 4.5" pockets are the way to go.
Forget about guests that want to enjoy bigger pockets.....let them buy their own table.
This one is yours and so make it a monster& then lean to tame it, Got the brass? Go 4 3/8".
But if you don't play much competitive pool & this is just for leisure, go with bigger pockets.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a forum with many hard core players. Some of those players are going to recommend you reduce your pocket size WAY down. They're going to make all sorts of fanciful claims about how much it's going to improve you as a player. The below points are made regarding much tighter pockets than your 4.5 inch potential pockets. However, if you are not very good they may still apply. In general, you probably won't suffer the worst consequences with a small change like you want and outline in your post.

Here are the benefits of very tight pockets as I see them, they all apply to advanced players.:
1. If your technique is allready rock solid, it will help you fine tune your accuracy to a higher level. However, personally, I think the pockets need to be super tight to really have a good effect, snooker match table tight, Chinese 8 ball table tight (what I'm currently playing on). 5 inch to 4.5 is going to have a neglible effect.
2. It will teach you the value of perfect position (if you have the capability to use that knowledge).
3. It will teach you consistency in pre shot routine (if you have the knowledge to understand how to fix the correct things. Sadly, more usually it makes players neurotic and encourage rain-dance like random behaviours, because when the technique isn't good enough, the makes are more random than skillful. A player can start bobbing up and down, taking too many practise strokes etc etc..because they did it once and happened to make a couple of tough shots in a row.)

Here are the drawbacks of tighter tables (approaching 4 inches or less), which sadly will be much more prevalent than the above advantages:
1. It will make you less likely to run balls, which will make you frustrated and bored.
2. If your technique is not good enough, you will start holding back your stroke and playing passively.
3. It will slow you down.
4. If you are in an early state of playing development, you may never experiment with and learn advanced power shots, so you risk not learning those.
5. More dry breaks (boring)
6. You risk too much "cinching" in your game, rather than stroking shots with the correct english, you hit it with your preferred english for making the ball. This is bad and can cripple your long term development.

My experience with players who are not very strong who play on tight tables is that they tend to play slowly, defensively, hold back their strokes and poke at the ball. They also get a false view of their own ability, because they play on tougher tables. If you haven't run 3 racks in a row within the last couple of months, the table you're playing on is probably too tough for you. If you can't run 3 racks on 5 inch pockets, then continue practising until you can, fairly regularly. Only then should you consider tighter pockets.

There is no magic shortcut in playing on tighter pockets. The only "shortcut" you can take, is practising proper technique. If you just want to have fun with your friends, keep the pockets at their current size and try to run more racks. It's much more rewarding than running 2 balls and missing over and over on ultra tight pockets.

This is a reasonable post and I play regularly on 4 1/8 corners. Mostly 1P though, forget abought straight pool.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tight pockets are no fun for most people
including me

unless you are a great player and so are your friends
i would enjoy what you have
 

fiftyyardline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Most tables are 4.5”. I would say 5” is too wide. You’ll make balls at home that you’ll miss anywhere else. Tighter pockets teach you that you can’t get away with bad fundamentals. Some people challenge themselves with pro-cut (4.25”) and some masochists like tighter yer (4.125”). But if you go too tight you might lose some of the fun.


Respectfully, Matt
(I don’t take myself too seriously. I hope you can return the favor.)

The generally recognized definition of the term “pro-cut” is 4.5” - not 4.25”
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The generally recognized definition of the term “pro-cut” is 4.5” - not 4.25”


Thanks for the correction on terms. I got it mixed up since it seems pro events tend to be played on 4.25” with some 1P on 4.125” so I made the assumption on terms.


Respectfully, Matt
(I don’t take myself too seriously. I hope you can return the favor.)
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No standard pockets are 5”, the mechanic just adds 1/4” shims to each side of the pockets, extending the rails by the quarter inch. Shims are not that expensive.
If you are referring to pocket facings as shims, then adding 1/4" pocket facings to the already existing (I assume 1/8" pocket facings) then you'll have 3/8" of double stacked pocket facings material at the end of each cushion rubber. This is certainly not recommended and creates a huge surface of "dead cushion" near the pocket mouths.

Unless your installer is familiar with the correct process of removing your cushion rubbers (which may need to be replaced or reglued anyway), extending your subrails, re-fastening or replacing your cushion rubbers then using a 1/8" or 3/16" facings, my advice would be to just simply have your installer replace your old 1/8" facings with new 3/16" black neoprene facings when he re-covers your rails. This way, your pockets will come out 1/8" tighter than they currently are, and the facings are not so thick that your pockets and cushions should still play real good.
 
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Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The size of the pocket opening is just one of several measurements that determine how tight a pocket will play. The shelf depth, down angle, and back angle of the pocket are equally important. Posts by RealKingCobra discussing the conversion process he performs on Gold Crowns have a ton of good information on the subject. In his posts you will also see how he reduces pocket size in the most proper way - by extending the subrail. Shims are an ok way to reduce pocket size, but they do change the way the pockets play simply because the pocket facings become much stiffer.

In my personal opinion, 5" pockets play too easy on Gold Crowns, and this is especially true with new cloth on an 8' table. Even very poorly struck balls will slide down the rail and into the pocket, which, depending on your goals with the game, may not be what you want. Gold Crowns tend to have shallow shelves and pocket metrics that make the pockets very accepting of balls. My 9' Gold Crown has 4.5" pockets (shimmed) and new-ish cloth, and even novice players can make balls on it. If the balls are dirty and the cloth is well-worn, it plays pretty tough, but not unfairly so in my opinion. I have seen Gold Crowns with 4" or even 3 7/8" pockets that still accepted well-struck balls.

Regards,
Aaron
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From all of your posts you state you are a casual player. Don't touch the size of the pockets. 5" corners, and 5.5" sides is what they are supposed to be.

Tighter pockets are for people who can run 5 consecutive racks of 9 ball from the break and want more of a challange. Or for people who play One Pocket and want to change the game strategy from ball pocketing to moving.

Leave your pockets alone.
 
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