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jay helfert
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03-23-2020, 05:48 AM

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Originally Posted by trentfromtoledo View Post
I stand corrected. that does make more sense. The best "table talkers" don't even know when they are doing it.

I got to play Johnny Archer last September. I have 4 GC's I restored for a small Hotel's bar up in Maine. Race to 7 in 9 ball. His warm up match before he started playing all the locals. Right as we got up to go play he said in his very southern accent " Imma Tear you up Trennnnnt". He ran the first rack down to the 9 and missed, freebie 1st game for me, I legit beat him the second rack and after that I shot twice. It was a good time even though he stomped me. I thought about it after and I was like: he table talked me before we even started, damn, he is GOOD!!!

TFT
Johnny Archer was "Shane" back in the 90's. He could win any tournament (and he won a lot of them) and he wasn't afraid to take on anyone and bet all he had. Just for the record, he is one of the top ten players of the last 30 years!

Only the absolute best could play with Johnny. Guys like Buddy (His close friend), Bustamante, Tadd, Parica (Numero Uno), Strickland and the like. I was backing Parica a little bit back then in tournaments and he told me once that Johnny was the guy he most feared!

One other thing I'd like to add to this thread. Gambling is part of our culture, here and abroad. Our level of gambling pales in comparison to some of the Asian cultures where people will work for a year and then bet it all on one play in a Macau casino! As for the mention of dumping in pool, that also goes on in all other sports! Tennis matches have been dumped, Snooker - come on!, pro golfers used to routinely make "deals" on how to split up the prize money, basketball has had it's share of players who shave points for the gamblers, baseball players have bet on games, and on and on. Like it or not, it's here to stay as long as human beings are competing against each other.


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jasonlaus
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03-23-2020, 06:13 AM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
In the small midwest town where I grew up in the 50s (10,000 population) there were 5 poolrooms. In the two or three with better equipment, there was always a continuous ring game going on (dimes or quarters)...after all, that’s why they called it ‘POOL’. The ‘gambling’ aspect is why I still can’t always control the cueball! I was conditioned when young to turn whitey loose, just to see where he would end up, much like how roulette players stare at the wheel to see where that little ball will land. I HAVE gotten smarter over the years, and can usually resist the the inclination under pressure to revert to my childhood instincts.
But (go figure), I now find myself residing in a ‘bible belt’ geographic location where absolutely NO ONE is interested in gambling on pool games! The ‘sportsman’ class of ‘game’ individuals who were always ready for action has apparently died out. I (luckily) was never an inveterate gambler who played for high stakes, but Jeez, WTF, why is nobody willing to risk even chicken feed to make the game more interesting?
The world certainly has changed.
I expected to see this dated 15yrs ago lol
  
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trentfromtoledo
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03-23-2020, 07:42 AM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post

he gambles too

Not what he told me when I met him A couple of guys asked him to play for money is what brought it up.

Earl was there as well, he said he does not gamble anymore(an has not for a very long time) either.


"Gambling is part of our culture,"

Maybe that is why pool is having such a hard time becoming a Professional Sport??

I understand gambling exists in all sports, but, don't see any real benefits to it. For every person who can "afford" to gamble or is a "good gambler" I think there are 1000 more who are losing and causing strife in their lives. "Money is the root of all evil", I tend to find this to be true. I work hard for my money and don't like the nervous feeling I get about losing it on a bet. Just my feelings and opinion on the topic.

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03-23-2020, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by trentfromtoledo View Post
Not what he told me when I met him A couple of guys asked him to play for money is what brought it up.

Earl was there as well, he said he does not gamble anymore(an has not for a very long time) either.


"Gambling is part of our culture,"

Maybe that is why pool is having such a hard time becoming a Professional Sport??

I understand gambling exists in all sports, but, don't see any real benefits to it. For every person who can "afford" to gamble or is a "good gambler" I think there are 1000 more who are losing and causing strife in their lives. "Money is the root of all evil", I tend to find this to be true. I work hard for my money and don't like the nervous feeling I get about losing it on a bet. Just my feelings and opinion on the topic.

TFT
I may have shared a ride with Earl when he was this brown haired kid with that teen idol look. They told me his name was Billy or something; could be mistaken. Anyway they might not jump up and play NOW but the song remains the same. Gambling spawned them and gave them the tools for their rise.

Pool's difficulties lie in its difficulties. It doesn't help either, that those who may have carried the tradition have been subverted by the instant gratification on their phones.
There won't be any corporate empowerment for such a loser either. That it is a natural gambling medium is why it's still around.
  
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JazzyJeff87
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03-23-2020, 08:29 AM

Gambling doesn’t really have anything to do with pools popularity as a “sport”...it’s an awesome game but it is not very interesting to casual viewers and that is the bottom line. There is no way around that at all, ever. Some other countries have a better history with the game and they take it a little more seriously. It’s in the SEA games. But in the US there is no social stigma in not liking pool like there is for football, base, and basket. So people don’t feel the need to keep up with what’s going on so they can fit in.

Pool is a small thing that will remain fairly small forever, if we’re lucky and fight to keep it alive like it is now, otherwise it will go the way of lawn darts.
  
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trentfromtoledo
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03-23-2020, 08:33 AM

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Originally Posted by JazzyJeff87 View Post
Pool is a small thing that will remain fairly small forever, if we’re lucky and fight to keep it alive like it is now, otherwise it will go the way of lawn darts.
I am very grateful to have my small part in the Pool Industry and I love to PLAY!
I think it will become an Olympic Sport some day!

TFT
  
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03-23-2020, 11:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Fatboy View Post
Read the Kelly criterion about gambling. The math genius’s and actuaries have it down cold. I know a few who are degen gamblers.
I agree that someone who has fully mastered statistics can use this skill to their advantage.

But if you have less that a full mastery of statistics, you understand that you are the pigeon in the game.
  
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03-23-2020, 12:03 PM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
You already know that we are cut from the same cloth. I could watch a guy play one rack and know whether or not I could beat him. After that the rest was all a formality.
Same here.

I used to like to walk into places where a ring game was going on and watch for a little while to see which, if any, of them could actually "play".

Eventually, I would put a quarter on the table or challenge and get into the game. I, usually, wound up with most of everyone's money. Then, one of them may decide to play one-on-one and I'd get his money and whatever money he'd won in the ring game, too.

Even when we played for .25 cents on the 5 and .50 cents on the 9, I'd sometimes come out with more than $100-200 in a day from just those little ring games.
  
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03-23-2020, 02:27 PM

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
Same here.

I used to like to walk into places where a ring game was going on and watch for a little while to see which, if any, of them could actually "play".

Eventually, I would put a quarter on the table or challenge and get into the game. I, usually, wound up with most of everyone's money. Then, one of them may decide to play one-on-one and I'd get his money and whatever money he'd won in the ring game, too.

Even when we played for .25 cents on the 5 and .50 cents on the 9, I'd sometimes come out with more than $100-200 in a day from just those little ring games.
Which likely inspired most of those ring players to practice more!
Face it, counting your money after the game is over, is just another way of keeping score. Nobody with any brains who goes to a casino (many to choose from nowadays) expects to beat the house odds in the long run, and small-stakes social gambling on pool games among relative equals is a lot more fun than pissing your $ away playing craps or roulette.
  
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03-23-2020, 05:35 PM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post
I met Archer in the 90s, he was using that white Scorpion. I thought it was all ivory lol. He was pretty much like all the top players; best foot forward, amicable...

he gambles too

He’s a great guy


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  (#41)
Fatboy
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03-23-2020, 05:36 PM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Johnny Archer was "Shane" back in the 90's. He could win any tournament (and he won a lot of them) and he wasn't afraid to take on anyone and bet all he had. Just for the record, he is one of the top ten players of the last 30 years!

Only the absolute best could play with Johnny. Guys like Buddy (His close friend), Bustamante, Tadd, Parica (Numero Uno), Strickland and the like. I was backing Parica a little bit back then in tournaments and he told me once that Johnny was the guy he most feared!

One other thing I'd like to add to this thread. Gambling is part of our culture, here and abroad. Our level of gambling pales in comparison to some of the Asian cultures where people will work for a year and then bet it all on one play in a Macau casino! As for the mention of dumping in pool, that also goes on in all other sports! Tennis matches have been dumped, Snooker - come on!, pro golfers used to routinely make "deals" on how to split up the prize money, basketball has had it's share of players who shave points for the gamblers, baseball players have bet on games, and on and on. Like it or not, it's here to stay as long as human beings are competing against each other.

Great post Jay

Gambling is part of our culture(if your over 35)


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03-23-2020, 06:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Fatboy View Post
It’s a shift is society.



Casino’s revenue from gaming has been declining for years now.



Young people don’t have the gamble they did 50 years ago.



People are more risk averse now. And PC which I can’t stand.



Used to be gambling and risk taking was the American way, now it’s lock up what you can and take no chances. That behavior feeds on itself. Think about it. You lose $1000, when can you win it back? Mite be a day or a month. I used to play 1-5 guys a day knowing if I lost to one guy there would be another game right behind him where I could win.



League pool is all reward and very little risked. It’s not like gambling to win a dime you have to bet a dime.





Having said all that......Tails for what ever you can stand!!!



It’s so bad I offered a guy (who has $) to flip for what ever he wanted his coin, his call, his flip and I’d lay 6/5 do zero chance for me to cheat. It was 100% a winning game for him. He was scared to bet. This was in Santa Monica at House of Billiards about 4-5 years ago. I knew then there was not much action left.



It’s a shift in our culture and I hate it.



Fatboy


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03-23-2020, 08:20 PM

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He’s a great guy
Yeah he helped me take out an A player by stopping by to "sweat" the match like a long time pal. We had just met lol.
  
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gambling and wagering
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ShootingArts
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gambling and wagering - 03-24-2020, 12:22 AM

In my state gambling and wagering are distinguished from each other. I think it was hashed out when a couple of very important people were caught betting on their golf game.

According to my state, wagering is betting on your personal abilities. Gambling is betting on something you can't control, except for legal gambling like the Lotto. The law contradicts itself over and over, basically BS. However, what has been made clear is that a bet between two pool players who are shooting themselves is perfectly legal. Two people betting on the rail isn't. It hasn't been made clear as far as I know if a player on the table bets with a railbird. It would seem that the same bet is legal for one person and not the other!

I believe a major factor in killing off many pool halls is legal gambling. Unless betting on the rail, gambling at pool takes a lot of skill. Skill in setting up the bet these days, skill in play. It is a hell of a lot easier to pull levers or slap at cards on a screen. Skill has little or nothing to do with it. Everybody can stop off at a cafe and get their gambling jones covered with their cup of coffee. Stop by the truckstop for gas and play for fifteen minutes on the way to or from work. Head to off track betting that evening. Legal gambling is all around us, except for charity bingo. The casinos don't tolerate that open of competition and as the state was warned beforehand, once casinos come in they tell the state what to do, not the other way around!

The loss of a significant revenue stream from gamblers that couldn't easily get their gambling fix elsewhere has been very hard on pool halls. What has bailed them out somewhat is the hated league play that most serious players dislike for the noise and lack of courtesy many league players show. I try to stay out of halls on league and date nights. The halls probably wouldn't exist without them but impossible to focus on pool with some trash thumping out of the juke box at high volume, smoke that won't let me see across the room even with smoke eaters, and the total lack of knowledge or care about pool courtesy shown by many league players and people taking dates to the pool hall. Easy to see that they drink a lot of beer, eat a lot of food, buy some of those cigarettes right there at the hall.

I don't think that gambling has hurt pool's image that much, I think the loss of local gambling has all but destroyed pool halls. Also for the public to accept pool halls they need to be bright, decently decorated, and clean places. Also filthy language, particularly at high volume, offends John and Jane Q Public. Never mind that this is what they are playing on the juke box and the sweet looking lady at the table during league is using language that would make a sailor blush beet red!

Funny world! Pool needs more gambling, not less. Sports betting is huge. However, it has been proven over and over that particularly one on one sports offer too much opportunity to cheat the betters. Vegas was taken for a ride long ago and has a long memory.

We need more gambling at all levels. We also need to keep pool and pool players honest. Figuring out how to do that is the hard part.

Hu
  
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DynoDan
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03-24-2020, 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
.....We also need to keep pool and pool players honest. Figuring out how to do that is the hard part.

Hu
All part of a traditional education sadly missing with today’s youth. Spotting the ‘novice stranger’ & ‘brother-in-law’ hustles was once merely part of growing up.
The traveling ‘flim-flam’ man interaction was also what once kept us from falling for the more expensive internet/phone con games many adults (that should know better) succumb to nowadays. The small early loses to hustlers & con artists in my youth was always money I considered ‘well spent’ (IMHO).
  
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