Cut indused Cue Ball Spin
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3kushn
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Cut indused Cue Ball Spin - 04-05-2020, 12:01 PM

Hard for me to find the words for this question but gotta start somewhere.
While under quarantine I'm on my 3C table more than ever which is a good thing.
A large percentage of my shots I'm clocking the CB and now trying to expand on that knowledge trying to get more precision beyond 1/2Ball and thin hits sending the CB perpendicular to a rail.

I'm wondering if there's been any study on what's added or subtracted to the CB with outside or inside English with 1/8 or 1/4 or .... hits.

I'm finding there's a considerable amount of interaction. I know the reason but can't get a handle on the rhyme. When do things change, For instance with inside English and shooting directly perpendicular to a rail into a ball where is the change from taking the spin or the CB English reversing?

Sorry if this doesn't clear enough.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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04-05-2020, 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
Hard for me to find the words for this question but gotta start somewhere.
While under quarantine I'm on my 3C table more than ever which is a good thing.
A large percentage of my shots I'm clocking the CB and now trying to expand on that knowledge trying to get more precision beyond 1/2Ball and thin hits sending the CB perpendicular to a rail.

I'm wondering if there's been any study on what's added or subtracted to the CB with outside or inside English with 1/8 or 1/4 or .... hits.

I'm finding there's a considerable amount of interaction. I know the reason but can't get a handle on the rhyme. When do things change, For instance with inside English and shooting directly perpendicular to a rail into a ball where is the change from taking the spin or the CB English reversing?

Sorry if this doesn't clear enough.
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?

pj
chgo
  
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Bob Jewett
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04-05-2020, 04:07 PM

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Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
... Sorry if this doesn't clear enough.
It isn't clear at all. I think you need to make a diagram.


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04-05-2020, 04:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It isn't clear at all. I think you need to make a diagram.
Thank you Bob, for chiming in.
Is there something like wei table? Or do I need to take photos?

Lets imagine looking at a short angle shot. Ball 2 is on the second diamond. CB is say on the second diamond less a ball width to the right, the short rail is on the right. Nothing frozen to the rails. Ball 3 is on the 1st diamond on the opposite long rail. Then look at the CB close to the short rail. Rather than essentially half ball hit stuff.

The other shot would be the 3rd ball is sitting say near the 1st diamond on the short rail. A nice reverse English shot. Consider the 2 CB positions.

Of course there's other ways to make these. Not my question. Just trying to figure out cuing and cuts.

At least a starting point.

Last edited by 3kushn; 04-05-2020 at 04:36 PM.
  
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04-05-2020, 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?

pj
chgo
Had to read that 4 times but yes. Hit thickness is the other variable.
I'm also looking at outside induced English on the "Cue Ball"

I'm sure there's now absolute precision in this. Just looking for a starting point.

I'm getting inconsistent results.
Lets assume I'm a repeatable robot to remove all those things.
  
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04-05-2020, 06:35 PM

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Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
Thank you Bob, for chiming in.
Is there something like wei table? ...
(Unfortunately, the usability concepts behind the wei table were broken and Wei lost interest in improving it or maintaining it after a few years.)

Here you go:

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/
Name:  CropperCapture[512].png
Views: 143
Size:  32.0 KB

Lots of settings. I use a screen-capture tool to get the image. Maybe there is a built-in way.

(And I use a different tool for my diagrams that I am already familiar with, so I don't know the details of how to use chalkysticks.)

Other resources (including things like Chalkysticks) are listed on Dr. Dave's pages:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/templates/


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Last edited by Bob Jewett; 04-05-2020 at 06:38 PM.
  
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04-05-2020, 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
Had to read that 4 times but yes. Hit thickness is the other variable.
I'm also looking at outside induced English on the "Cue Ball"

I'm sure there's now absolute precision in this. Just looking for a starting point.

I'm getting inconsistent results.
Lets assume I'm a repeatable robot to remove all those things.
Just to post, I play billiards like it's pool; essentially locking in the object ball and shooting the carom. You get way more kisses in this manner but that's how I learn. Gradually the cut this or drive this dilemma clears up leaving you (me) to deal with competence issues.
If you're real anal about practice, you can drill on exit direction (the vector and break of the cue ball) and drill that till you know it picture perfect by heart. The issues here form the crux (Wutevuh TF that means) of inconsistency.
  
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04-06-2020, 03:56 AM

..........

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04-06-2020, 08:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
Had to read that 4 times but yes.
Different amounts of cut-induced CB spin are produced at different cut angles, CB speed and CB vertical rotation (follow, stun or draw) - and of course it takes different amounts of inside spin to match the cut-induced CB spin for each set of conditions.

So the answer is "it depends".

Glad to help,

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04-06-2020, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Different amounts of cut-induced CB spin are produced at different cut angles, CB speed and CB vertical rotation (follow, stun or draw) - and of course it takes different amounts of inside spin to match the cut-induced CB spin for each set of conditions.

So the answer is "it depends".

Glad to help,

pj
chgo
I was afraid the answer was "well you just have to check you gut"
Here's some Chalky images And sorry about the size. 25K is still too big
Name:  Drop-In.jpg
Views: 111
Size:  25.5 KB

Name:  Long-Inside-Spin.jpg
Views: 113
Size:  25.5 KB

Name:  Reverse_Short-Angle.jpg
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Size:  27.8 KB

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04-06-2020, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
I was afraid the answer was "well you just have to check you gut"
On the positive side - as a 3kushn player your gut is more reliable than most in these matters.

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04-06-2020, 03:36 PM

3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?


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04-06-2020, 06:16 PM

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..........
Why'd you trash this?
  
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04-06-2020, 06:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe View Post
3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?
Force follow has nothing to do with this. I think.
I'm asking what is the amount of spin (English) added or subtracted from the CB after colliding with the OB. Is there a way to quantify some way in order to adjust is the real question. What do I add or subtract depending on the hit and angle?

All the science it seems is about the OB. I'm more about the CB.
  
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04-06-2020, 06:32 PM

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3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?
Sounds to me like he's curious about nailing the zone in that 1' circle right around the first contact. This area is a soup of catastrophic flip-flops if you're trying to nail the point of change. It's worse if a cushion in that circle is the second collision. Add positional requirements and shooter inconsistency, it's no wonder the players rely on cinch stroke shots rather than shot plotting.
  
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