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Scott Lee
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04-14-2020, 10:47 PM

Hello Leigh...Like my fellow SPF instructor randyg said, you have some "good bones" (read: process) already, and are heading in the right direction. All you need is a little direction, and some better progressive drills, like the SPF Mother Drills, to help you master your process. I like the way you swing your cue...pulling all the way back slowly, with a nice brief pause at the transition from backswing to forward stroke...and a smooth accelerated movement through the CB. Start using just stripes for your drill, and put the stripe exactly upright. Then you can measure how straight your stroke is by making the stripe roll like a tire into the pocket. Then learn to do it at different speeds, from a lag all the way to a break speed stroke.

Your real problem is that you don't know where your personal finish point is (where the tip finishes on the cloth when your cradle hand finishes at your breast (which you should be figuring out how that works for you, since it's different for every woman because of body orientation to the shot, body size and shape...we're all different). Once you can measure your finish, your brain can train your arm to deliver the cuestick in a straight line to the same finish position every time...even on the break, and on a lag! You can't fix what you don't know about (you don't know what you don't know) ...you can't fix something you can't measure...and you can only fix one thing at a time.

Now, here's some accurate video analysis from your videos, which you did a great job with btw! That shows me that you know how to follow directions well! No matter who the teacher is, it's the effort by the student where the rubber meets the road.

First, your cuestick is nowhere near level (it may seem like only a little to you, but just the mild elevation you have will result in an 18% probability of some sort of error (forced or unforced). Lowering your cue will also result in you getting more speed, because you won't be shooting "into the cloth" as much. Here's what you do...rest the cue on the rail, put your bridge hand where you're comfortable away from the CB. With the tip touching the CB, measure the distance between where the stick crosses your hand, right up to the CB. This is your natural bridge length (we all have one, if you know how to measure it). Don't guess...use a ruler or tape measure. Check where you're supposed to hold your cue, when the forearm is perpendicular to the cuestick. In your two 'grip' examples neither one has any relevance to "hitting the ball harder", as that is only related to how fast you move the cue forward, trying to keep muscle tension to a minimum (many players and instructors refer to this as 'throwing the cue').

The glaring error in your grip that jumped out at me was your wrist cock. You want your wrist to hang in a straight line with your forearm, so you can make the quick transition to a power stroke, with no breakdown in routine. The cocked wrist makes it much more difficult to have a smooth transition, especially on faster strokes. Like has been mentioned in other posts, you really want to hit the CB at the bottom of the swing, so that you can build timing into muscle memory, and learn how to move the cue the same way for all speeds. (I teach 10, for example...a 1 is a lag, and a 10 is a break). The key is to be able to do all 10 with the same process/routine... the personal eye pattern (PEP) is a big part of this.

When you finish your stroke to your boob, you can swing the cue at any forward speed, with no tension on the grip, because your body 'catches' the cue, making the finish or follow through the same for every shot. That is also measurable...measure how far the tip goes past the CB, measuring from the front edge, not the backside). It doesn't matter if it's only a couple of inches (barely through the CB) or 8-10". It's what's natural for you with no elbow drop. People who equate following through farther with more power don't know what they're talking about. The CB is gone in 1/1000th of a second, whether you follow through 1 inch or 3 feet! Again, with a pendulum stroke like you already mostly have, you just need to fill in the numbers, so you can create an accurate, repeatable routine that you can train into a monster!

Since we're both stuck at home, if you'd like to talk pool, be at your table, and give me a call! 773-551-7473

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour



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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
First I would like to say thank you for your incredible generosity to take the time to reply to this post. A little background: I am 50 years old, just started playing a year ago, I immediately bought a table, and joined a house league at the local pool hall. Everyone at the pool hall has been so helpful and welcoming. In nine ball I’m a four (but I think I get lucky and I’m probably more like a three) and in eight ball I’m a four or five... I think four is more accurate. I’m only five one and cross eye dominant. I work a ton and don’t have a lot of time to practice so now that I’m working from home I’m trying to practice as much as possible. I really want to drill down my fundamentals so I don’t have to think about them when I’m playing a game. I’m making my way through Tor Lowery’s pool drills.
Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg


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04-15-2020, 01:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
It's what's natural for you with no elbow drop. People who equate following through farther with more power don't know what they're talking about. The CB is gone in 1/1000th of a second, whether you follow through 1 inch or 3 feet! Again, with a pendulum stroke like you already mostly have, you just need to fill in the numbers, so you can create an accurate, repeatable routine that you can train into a monster!
Maybe you should make sure your shots have the right english on 'em. Follow through and force go hand in hand. If you anticipate a short follow through such as, your arm is too short, (this is a considerable body of players) then you are not mentally prepared to produce sufficient cue speed. The main reason for the elbow drop should be obvious. Most arms aren't long enough to produce the required range of force without undue strain especially with the elbow folding on itself with nowhere to go. A long windup and full follow through provide the widest range of speed and touch.
  
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04-15-2020, 01:35 PM

Sorry straightline, but the weight of the cue, and really good timing, with a relaxed grip are the only elements that matter. What I have bolded in your post is false information. How far you follow through has no bearing on how much speed can be generated with a pendulum stroke. The tip is only in contact with the CB for a quarter of an eyeblink (.001 seconds, no matter whether you use a pendulum or piston (elbow drop) stroke), and then it is gone...so following through more will not result in any effective change in speed or force.

For the huge majority of amateur pool players, the pendulum stroke is the perfect representation of accuracy and repeatability. Can you "force" the stick through the CB? Certainly, but most will have difficulty with speed control and grip pressure. I realize you're "old school" all the way, but you should realize that there may be better ways these days to achieve a goal. For this player, I have given her clear-cut instructions on how to create a great process...and offered to talk her through it on the phone, if she chooses to call.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by straightline View Post
Maybe you should make sure your shots have the right english on 'em. Follow through and force go hand in hand. If you anticipate a short follow through such as, your arm is too short, (this is a considerable body of players) then you are not mentally prepared to produce sufficient cue speed. The main reason for the elbow drop should be obvious. Most arms aren't long enough to produce the required range of force without undue strain especially with the elbow folding on itself with nowhere to go. A long windup and full follow through provide the widest range of speed and touch.


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04-15-2020, 04:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Sorry straightline, but the weight of the cue, and really good timing, with a relaxed grip are the only elements that matter. What I have bolded in your post is false information. How far you follow through has no bearing on how much speed can be generated with a pendulum stroke. The tip is only in contact with the CB for a quarter of an eyeblink (.001 seconds, no matter whether you use a pendulum or piston (elbow drop) stroke), and then it is gone...so following through more will not result in any effective change in speed or force.

For the huge majority of amateur pool players, the pendulum stroke is the perfect representation of accuracy and repeatability. Can you "force" the stick through the CB? Certainly, but most will have difficulty with speed control and grip pressure. I realize you're "old school" all the way, but you should realize that there may be better ways these days to achieve a goal. For this player, I have given her clear-cut instructions on how to create a great process...and offered to talk her through it on the phone, if she chooses to call.
You read with your ego or you are simply incorrect. How far you are ABLE to follow through has everything to do with how hard you will hit. As far as your textbook facts, they aren't pertinent to this point nor a physique limited stroke. Skewing semantically is something I would expect from customer service and not an instructor...
  
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04-15-2020, 08:01 PM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post
You read with your ego or you are simply incorrect. How far you are ABLE to follow through has everything to do with how hard you will hit. As far as your textbook facts, they aren't pertinent to this point nor a physique limited stroke. Skewing semantically is something I would expect from customer service and not an instructor...
I think you and Scott are both correct, but you're each talking about different parts of the stroke. Like Scott said, cue weight and timing (as it relates to maximum or optimal speed) is what determines cb striking power. You are correct in associating greater follow through with greater power. The difference is....what Scott is talking about is the cause, and what you're talking about is the effect. In other words, a longer follow through doesn't produce more power or optimal timing, but it can be the result of these things.

Simply allowing the cue to naturally come to a stop at the end of the stroke is much better than consciously trying to stop or slow the follow through after cb impact. With the correct timing, max or optimal cue speed should be reached as the tip strikes the cb, then a natural deceleration of the cue occurs with the follow through. I believe what you're saying is, by utilizing a good follow through it helps ensure optimal cue stick speed when the tip strikes the cb. Or did you mean something different?
  
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04-16-2020, 12:52 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I think you and Scott are both correct, but you're each talking about different parts of the stroke. Like Scott said, cue weight and timing (as it relates to maximum or optimal speed) is what determines cb striking power. You are correct in associating greater follow through with greater power. The difference is....what Scott is talking about is the cause, and what you're talking about is the effect. In other words, a longer follow through doesn't produce more power or optimal timing, but it can be the result of these things.

Simply allowing the cue to naturally come to a stop at the end of the stroke is much better than consciously trying to stop or slow the follow through after cb impact. With the correct timing, max or optimal cue speed should be reached as the tip strikes the cb, then a natural deceleration of the cue occurs with the follow through. I believe what you're saying is, by utilizing a good follow through it helps ensure optimal cue stick speed when the tip strikes the cb. Or did you mean something different?
Yes that's just one justification for the elbow drop which is the point he threw the shot at. Not a problem; nowhere to back down from correct. I might elaborate further with, wear and tear on the joints may not put you in traction but for the players who put in long hours grinding it out, need I say more?

@Leigh, I'm not selling anything nor trying to derail this thread. Hope you understand.
  
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Lightbulb 04-16-2020, 11:45 PM

Well, in your case, I guess pool physics = ego! Pretty tough to defeat physics...in fact you can't! There is really no such thing as a "physique limited stroke". There's just the "limited" mindset that things must be learned your way, and your way only. The way we teach, we fit the stroke to the body...not the other way around. Your comment about physics not being pertinent in this discussion just shows your lack of understanding. Once again, you simply don't know what you don't know.

Scott Lee
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Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Quote:
Originally Posted by straightline View Post
You read with your ego or you are simply incorrect. How far you are ABLE to follow through has everything to do with how hard you will hit. As far as your textbook facts, they aren't pertinent to this point nor a physique limited stroke. Skewing semantically is something I would expect from customer service and not an instructor...


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04-17-2020, 12:18 AM

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Well, in your case, I guess pool physics = ego! Pretty tough to defeat physics...in fact you can't! There is really no such thing as a "physique limited stroke". There's just the "limited" mindset that things must be learned your way, and your way only. The way we teach, we fit the stroke to the body...not the other way around. Your comment about physics not being pertinent in this discussion just shows your lack of understanding. Once again, you simply don't know what you don't know.
Well you missed again; the same way no less. You're still self promoting the only point you got on it and it's not even the point. Plus insults. Good lesson.
Incidentally you seem to be unaware of the fact that this:

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Once again, you simply don't know what you don't know.
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04-18-2020, 11:21 AM

Very good post and excellent videos. Just a suggestion to try based on 60+ years experience...try raising up about 4 to 6 inches. This may loosen up your stroke and result in much more power which is what you requested.
An alternative is to lower your cue or even try both to some degree.


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04-18-2020, 01:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The important thing for moving the cue ball easily is not follow through but rather speed of the cue stick at the instant it contacts the cue ball. Usually that is hurt by moving the arm farther back behind perpendicular.

I suspect that you are stopping your stroke early, which leads to weak shots. It is impossible to tell without seeing your stroke. Can you make a video of you shooting in various ways shot from the side and the front?
I disagree with negating the importance of following through with regard to stroking. When a player is determined to follow through, their stroke timing gets better. So focusing on following through is a good thing and is not irrelevant to a good stroke.
  
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04-18-2020, 01:36 PM

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Well you missed again; the same way no less. You're still self promoting the only point you got on it and it's not even the point. Plus insults. Good lesson.
Incidentally you seem to be unaware of the fact that this:



Is cutting you.
Straightline --- let's not forget that you're posting as anonymous. How about you step up and put your name behind your posts? The rest of us are. What's to hide?
  
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04-18-2020, 02:13 PM

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Straightline --- let's not forget that you're posting as anonymous. How about you step up and put your name behind your posts? The rest of us are. What's to hide?
I hung around with players in the 70s. Loved the pool but it was pretty obvious to me I wasn't the player type. So I stuck to pool and learned pool. Not real interested in socializing. Posting is enough danger for me. lol...
  
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04-19-2020, 02:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
First I would like to say thank you for your incredible generosity to take the time to reply to this post. A little background: I am 50 years old, just started playing a year ago, I immediately bought a table, and joined a house league at the local pool hall. Everyone at the pool hall has been so helpful and welcoming. In nine ball I知 a four (but I think I get lucky and I知 probably more like a three) and in eight ball I知 a four or five... I think four is more accurate. I知 only five one and cross eye dominant. I work a ton and don稚 have a lot of time to practice so now that I知 working from home I知 trying to practice as much as possible. I really want to drill down my fundamentals so I don稚 have to think about them when I知 playing a game. I知 making my way through Tor Lowery痴 pool drills.
Attached are two videos. One shot from the side, one from the front. All criticism on what I am doing wrong is welcome. I just want to get better.
Here are the two videos. The first one is from the side and the second from the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5b6d1U1V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuMXclcJhDg
Couple observations about what's happening. First of all, you seem concerned about not generating enough speed/power to move the CB around. If that's the case then I'd suggest making a video of you shooting actual shots and trying to get 2-3 rail position. That would be helpful in determining what is needed for improvement. The problem with the videos you posted is that you're just lagging balls into the pocket without really trying to get any power into the shot.
As Bob pointed out, the power comes mostly from speed of stroke. Length, smoothness and pace of acceleration are the primary factors. All of that happens before tip contact with CB. Follow through is just the result of what came before. Perhaps I'm strange but in 50+ years I've never once thought to myself "make sure you follow through". It would be putting the cart before the horse.
What I do see in the videos is 2 things:
When you move your right hand back what you think is about 4" it's actually only about an inch and a half or so because at the same time you move your grip hand you are also moving your bridge hand almost the same amount. So in effect not much has really changed.Your follow thru is slightly longer but not 4", more like an inch and a half or so.
If you moved your right hand back 4" and left your bridge hand in the original place it would feel very uncomfortable and that's why your bridge hand moved along with your grip hand. It's a very natural thing to have happen.
The other thing was that you and others noticed and discussed the relationship between your forearm and the plane of the cue.It should be fairly close to 90*. Again, as Bob pointed out, you're fairly good, in both positions actually. Which,if you think about it, would tend to confirm my assertion that you moved both hands on the cue for your second set of 3 shots. If you only moved your grip hand 4" then the cue/forearm relationship would be noticeably off.
What you need to look at is the angle between your forearm and your upper arm. It also should be close to 90*. That, more than anything, is what's limiting your stroke length/follow thru. That angle is somewhat dictated by your body type/size. Standing up straighter may help though then relearning to aim will be an issue. I also think a shorter cue may help.
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05-31-2020, 08:26 PM

Hello everyone that posted! Work got crazy (I am the vice principal of a school) and required my attention for a little bit. Although I was practicing I didn稚 recheck this thread. I just want to thank everybody so so much for taking the time. I am learning from all of you and I have already noticed improvements. God, I love this stupid game!!!!
  
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