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Force follow vs. long draw
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Force follow vs. long draw - 05-17-2020, 03:35 PM

I struggle with Force follow shots. Even from a pretty close distance, if I increase the speed and hit very high on the cue ball my accuracy drops way off. I feel like I am either trying to help the cue ball go in the direction I intend or I lose focus on the shot thinking about the ball traveling forward and rebounding where I want it to go.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion on what a force follow shot is, so to be clear, it is just when I need to travel forward aggressively and into a rail then back out to get position. Usually shooting pretty straight in where a lot of the momentum is lost with a full or almost full hit on the object ball, where I am relying on the forward roll to take me into a corner and back out.

I don't have the same issue with long draw shots. I have practiced long stop and draw shots a great deal more than force follow (or high action if you prefer) and it may be as simple as practicing the high follow shots more. That is the course I am on now. I am starting a practice routine with a variety of different kinds of shots where I need to develop that "high action".

I can stroke long and hard with draw and make the shots consistently. I am less accurate if I am hitting the top of the cue ball even on much shorter shots. The minute I move to the top of the cue ball and add speed, my accuracy drops.

Any thoughts about the differences in high action and low action?
  
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05-17-2020, 03:46 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
The minute I move to the top of the cue ball and add speed, my accuracy drops.

Any thoughts about the differences in high action and low action?
Could be off center hits on the CB - they can have more effect with high hits.

pj
chgo
  
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05-17-2020, 03:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Could be off center hits on the CB - they can have more effect with high hits.

pj
chgo
Yes, I suspect that. With draw I have a better visual. I see where the ball hits the table. I don't see that at the top as well. Also I am afraid I am positioning my head somehow favoring the side I want the cue ball to travel.

Example. I am shooting into a corner. I want to hit the short rail to the right of the pocket and come out two rails to the left. I will likely overcut that shot, trying to help the cue ball go right of the pocket and not follow it in. I almost never under cut a shot like that.
  
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Cue Ball Size
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Cue Ball Size - 05-17-2020, 04:24 PM

Have you checked the size of the cue ball?
  
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05-17-2020, 05:04 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
I am shooting into a corner. I want to hit the short rail to the right of the pocket and come out two rails to the left. I will likely overcut that shot, trying to help the cue ball go right of the pocket and not follow it in. I almost never under cut a shot like that.
With side spin? Sounds like underestimating squirt...

pj
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05-18-2020, 07:16 AM

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Have you checked the size of the cue ball?
yes. It is a new set of Diamond Cyclop
  
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05-18-2020, 07:33 AM

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With side spin? Sounds like underestimating squirt...

pj
chgo
No just top. Although adding side makes it more complicated and I don't expect to be as accurate when I use side. To test it all I try to avoid any side.

I get trapped at the end of the table by getting too straight in and just need to get out of the corner or off the rail and back out a little towards the center. If I had more angle I would not have to hit so hard and it is no problem. I have just enough angle to shoot straight in and I know the cue ball won't follow the ball into the pocket if I hit center pocket but it is as though subconsciously I don't trust it. With low speed it works fine but I only gain an inch or two off the rail (s). If I need a foot or more I have to hit it a little harder. I don't know if I am unintentionally putting side spin on by missing dead center or if I am simply missing my aim spot when I stroke harder.

I would blame the stroke if I had the same issue with power draw. And I might be kidding myself there too. Yes I can draw long hard shots but the return angle is not as critical so I am not focused on it.

Is there a key to hitting dead center with extreme high? With low I see where the ball touches the felt and have a good reference. This helps me insure my head is directly over the stick on the line. I seem to lose that confidence with top.
  
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05-18-2020, 07:41 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
I struggle with Force follow shots. Even from a pretty close distance, if I increase the speed and hit very high on the cue ball my accuracy drops way off. I feel like I am either trying to help the cue ball go in the direction I intend or I lose focus on the shot thinking about the ball traveling forward and rebounding where I want it to go.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion on what a force follow shot is, so to be clear, it is just when I need to travel forward aggressively and into a rail then back out to get position. Usually shooting pretty straight in where a lot of the momentum is lost with a full or almost full hit on the object ball, where I am relying on the forward roll to take me into a corner and back out.

I don't have the same issue with long draw shots. I have practiced long stop and draw shots a great deal more than force follow (or high action if you prefer) and it may be as simple as practicing the high follow shots more. That is the course I am on now. I am starting a practice routine with a variety of different kinds of shots where I need to develop that "high action".

I can stroke long and hard with draw and make the shots consistently. I am less accurate if I am hitting the top of the cue ball even on much shorter shots. The minute I move to the top of the cue ball and add speed, my accuracy drops.

Any thoughts about the differences in high action and low action?
There is a big difference in the stroke for the two shots. The draw requires much more "snap" at impact to get the draw needed. The follow is more of a 'flowing" type hit. Maybe on your follow shots you are are using the "snap" action too much. Something to think on.
  
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05-18-2020, 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
No just top. Although adding side makes it more complicated and I don't expect to be as accurate when I use side. To test it all I try to avoid any side.

I get trapped at the end of the table by getting too straight in and just need to get out of the corner or off the rail and back out a little towards the center. If I had more angle I would not have to hit so hard and it is no problem. I have just enough angle to shoot straight in and I know the cue ball won't follow the ball into the pocket if I hit center pocket but it is as though subconsciously I don't trust it. With low speed it works fine but I only gain an inch or two off the rail (s). If I need a foot or more I have to hit it a little harder. I don't know if I am unintentionally putting side spin on by missing dead center or if I am simply missing my aim spot when I stroke harder.

I would blame the stroke if I had the same issue with power draw. And I might be kidding myself there too. Yes I can draw long hard shots but the return angle is not as critical so I am not focused on it.

Is there a key to hitting dead center with extreme high? With low I see where the ball touches the felt and have a good reference. This helps me insure my head is directly over the stick on the line. I seem to lose that confidence with top.
The very top or apex of the ball is the mirror of the base
  
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05-18-2020, 09:28 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
... Any thoughts about the differences in high action and low action?
I suspect that you are just less comfortable with the follow -- most are the opposite, and fear draw -- and something in your fundamentals breaks down.

In the absence of getting someone to look at your fundamentals, I propose you try the following progressive practice. You will be cueing a stripe if you don't have an appropriate striped practice cue ball, and you may want to get an old one.

For an overview of how "progressive practice" works, see the PDF which is the fourth item here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm

The shot is a straight in with the (striped) cue ball about 12 inches from the object ball. The shot difficulty is adjusted by moving the OB closer/farther from the pocket after each shot. A coin can help you keep track of the current position.

Adjust the cue ball so that its stripe is vertical and in the line of the shot so that the stripe will be rolling like a tire on the way to the object ball.

The goal is to follow the object ball into the pocket. At the same time you want to have minimum wobble on the stripe of the cue ball. You can set for yourself how little wobble is acceptable to you.

The difficulty adjustment per shot is half a diamond or less.

You can also require that the cue ball go into the pocket with more speed.

The shot needs to be set up so that the two balls are perfectly in line with the center of the pocket or the shot is going to be a lot harder.

Let us know how it goes and whether you have additional observations after trying the practice.


Bob Jewett
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05-18-2020, 05:20 PM

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Originally Posted by garczar View Post
There is a big difference in the stroke for the two shots. The draw requires much more "snap" at impact to get the draw needed. The follow is more of a 'flowing" type hit. Maybe on your follow shots you are are using the "snap" action too much. Something to think on.
Clearly a struggle for me. I have tried getting the cue more level and even gone to far and actually trapped the cue ball and slid right off the top.

You are correct it is a totally different shot. On draw I extend forward and down to the cloth. I am less certain how to do that on extreme high. I don't think making it all the way down to the cloth is realistic, at least not for me. But I am trying a similar motion.
  
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05-18-2020, 05:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I suspect that you are just less comfortable with the follow -- most are the opposite, and fear draw -- and something in your fundamentals breaks down.

In the absence of getting someone to look at your fundamentals, I propose you try the following progressive practice. You will be cueing a stripe if you don't have an appropriate striped practice cue ball, and you may want to get an old one.

For an overview of how "progressive practice" works, see the PDF which is the fourth item here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm

The shot is a straight in with the (striped) cue ball about 12 inches from the object ball. The shot difficulty is adjusted by moving the OB closer/farther from the pocket after each shot. A coin can help you keep track of the current position.

Adjust the cue ball so that its stripe is vertical and in the line of the shot so that the stripe will be rolling like a tire on the way to the object ball.

The goal is to follow the object ball into the pocket. At the same time you want to have minimum wobble on the stripe of the cue ball. You can set for yourself how little wobble is acceptable to you.

The difficulty adjustment per shot is half a diamond or less.

You can also require that the cue ball go into the pocket with more speed.

The shot needs to be set up so that the two balls are perfectly in line with the center of the pocket or the shot is going to be a lot harder.

Let us know how it goes and whether you have additional observations after trying the practice.
1 B is typical of the shot I struggle with. I can follow it directly into the pocket without much trouble It is when I try to make the object ball and not follow it into the pocket that I break down. It is that little bit of angle that I am so poor at.

If I "cheat" the pocket slightly so the cue ball goes to the rail or if I have a tiny back cut angle so I don't even have to cheat it. I can no longer hit center pocket and have the cue ball travel forward to the end rail and rebound back 1/2 table. Invariably I will try to "help" the cue ball miss the pocket by hitting the object ball slightly closer to the rail. I end up hitting the rail with the object ball and missing the shot. What is even worse is if I have a small angle to the pocket and try to use the long rail. The cue ball doesn't come off the rail and goes right in the pocket. I don't consciously make these aming adjustments. I think I aim for center pocket. I can't tell if I am actually aiming wrong, like if my head is off to one side a little, or if, in my final stroke I am steering the stick to try to "help" it.

I will set the shots up as you suggest and work on them. I will try various small angles to see if I can follow just past the object ball and miss the pocket. I will try them with the striped ball to see if I have side spin on it. Thanks for the tip.

Last edited by skipbales; 05-18-2020 at 05:37 PM.
  
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05-18-2020, 05:47 PM

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... if I have a small angle to the pocket and try to use the long rail. The cue ball doesn't come off the rail and goes right in the pocket.
With only a slight angle the follow on the CB can make it curve back toward the rail after rebounding off it, causing the scratch. Happens to me too if Iím not careful - you just gotta learn to watch out for it.

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05-18-2020, 05:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
With only a slight angle the follow on the CB can make it curve back toward the rail after rebounding off it, causing the scratch. Happens to me too if Iím not careful - you just gotta learn to watch out for it.

pj
chgo
There is no magic bullet is there? The bottom line is I just need to set up a bunch of them and shoot them.

The shot that is a total mystery to me is down the long rail into the corner. I see the pros have what looks like a 10 degree angle and they make the ball, get the cue ball to the long rail and spin out like it is easy. I need more like 20 degrees. Anything less and the cue ball goes too far down the rail and either scratches or catches the point on the pocket. I blamed this on the top spin so tried center and low. I have tried top outside, center outside and even low outside. If I use a crazy amount of spin I can make it all work once in a great while. If the object ball is 2 inches away from the long rail there is no way I can get the cue ball to get to the rail and grip.
  
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05-19-2020, 07:33 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
There is no magic bullet is there? The bottom line is I just need to set up a bunch of them and shoot them.

The shot that is a total mystery to me is down the long rail into the corner. I see the pros have what looks like a 10 degree angle and they make the ball, get the cue ball to the long rail and spin out like it is easy. I need more like 20 degrees. Anything less and the cue ball goes too far down the rail and either scratches or catches the point on the pocket. I blamed this on the top spin so tried center and low. I have tried top outside, center outside and even low outside. If I use a crazy amount of spin I can make it all work once in a great while. If the object ball is 2 inches away from the long rail there is no way I can get the cue ball to get to the rail and grip.
If the cue ball “ spins out “ they have some English on the cue ball
  
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