What to look at

M

matthias1988

Registered
I have created an eye pattern that leaves me looking at the cue ball when I take my shot. The reason why i do this is because I like looking at my contact point when i shot the ball. I believe that If I am lined up properly to make the shot, that i will not get out of alignment if i don't look at the cue. I have been told by a good player/ instructor to even practice alignment and stroke consistency by closing my eyes and making the shot. My question is "is the any advantage to looking at the cue while taking the shot?"

here is my exact eye pattern

I look at the object ball while getting down in position and then aim
then i look at the cue ball while doing my practice strokes
then i do a set pause look up at the cue ball to make sure i am still aligned
then back at the cue ball and i take my shot.

The reason why i am asking when i see better players out there they seem to be looking at the OB not the CB and I am wondering if its costing me shots or if i need to concentrate on aiming more(and i am already concentrating on that already)

MATT
 
justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Good questions. Lately I've been looking at the cue ball last, as well. (Of course, I'm struggling right now so I'm grasping at every straw I can reach! :p )

I look forward to the answers.
 
justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
randyg said:
Just doesn't sound Natural. Look where we are going....randyg
Click to expand...

Not to argue, truly. But for me, looking at the cue ball kinda is looking at where I'm going. If I've lined my cue up properly, in any event. At least it seems to be. Maybe it's the old golf training about keeping my eye on what I'm hitting.

(And I'm so inconsistent, especially lately, nothing I do could be construed as making much sense. Yes, I would love Pool School, and being taught the right way. I'm afraid it's almost bucket-list territory for me, heh heh. :embarrassed2: )
 
M

matthias1988

Registered
justadub said:
Maybe it's the old golf training about keeping my eye on what I'm hitting.
)
Click to expand...
I think the same way "keep your eye on the ball" is what my father used to say(and still says at times) when we go golfing, or playing baseball. That is why i think its logical to look at the cue but I am pretty unresistant too, and i just want to know a logical reason why it is beneficial or is it just preference.
 
Mark Avlon

Mark Avlon

Northwest Pool School
Silver Member
If you are accurately aligned and have a straight stroke, you can shoot with your eyes closed like Vincent when made the 8 ball while talking and looking at Fast Eddie. The thing is, it only takes a small error to ruin a shot.

Looking at the target on the cue ball and throwing our stroke there can work fine, but if there is a small error here, there will be a larger error at the distant target.

Looking and throwing at the distant target helps us deliver our stroke to that target and helps to minimize or eliminate errors. If we make an error looking at the distant target, that error will likely be very small.

You can choose to look at whatever you want to when shooting, but why not look where you are more likely to minimize or eliminate errors?
 
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justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
In my case it's likely that I've resorted to this because my stroke isn't consistent enough, and I probably don't hit the cue ball in the spot I should be hitting it, if I'm not looking at it. Does that make sense? (The explanation, not the practice :p )

Just an uneducated guess. I know, the stroke's the thing.
 
Mark Avlon

Mark Avlon

Northwest Pool School
Silver Member
justadub said:
In my case it's likely that I've resorted to this because my stroke isn't consistent enough, and I probably don't hit the cue ball in the spot I should be hitting it, if I'm not looking at it.
Click to expand...

Looking at the cue ball is a band-aid for a more serious problem. It works for now, but fix your alignment and stroke and your game will significantly improve.
 
OnTheMF

OnTheMF

I know things
Silver Member
matthias1988 said:
I have created an eye pattern that leaves me looking at the cue ball when I take my shot. The reason why i do this is because I like looking at my contact point when i shot the ball. I believe that If I am lined up properly to make the shot, that i will not get out of alignment if i don't look at the cue. I have been told by a good player/ instructor to even practice alignment and stroke consistency by closing my eyes and making the shot. My question is "is the any advantage to looking at the cue while taking the shot?"

here is my exact eye pattern

I look at the object ball while getting down in position and then aim
then i look at the cue ball while doing my practice strokes
then i do a set pause look up at the cue ball to make sure i am still aligned
then back at the cue ball and i take my shot.

The reason why i am asking when i see better players out there they seem to be looking at the OB not the CB and I am wondering if its costing me shots or if i need to concentrate on aiming more(and i am already concentrating on that already)

MATT
Click to expand...

Hey Matt,

I'm not an instructor by any means, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I have received professional instruction in a number of sports, where "keep your eye on the ball" (or similar) was taught. Let me start by saying you're misinterpreting the saying "keep your eye on the ball."

The idea behind this instruction is to focus your eyes on the correct part of the "game" so that your brain gets the right information it needs to trigger the correct muscle memory. If you're not familiar with muscle memory I suggest you read up on it at wikipedia or somewhere similar. There's a wealth of information on the subject which dates all the way back to ancient greece. Muscle memory is at the core of all sports, and it's the reason we need to practice to get better.

Back to the point, "keep your eye on the ball" really means to look where you need to look, to get the right information about what you need to do. In a lot of sports this means "keep your eye on the ball", in automotive racing/motorcycle racing this means "look where you want to go", in pool this means look at your object ball. This will trigger the motor movements that are ingrained in your muscle memory for that shot. If your sight is focused on the cue ball then you're relying on what you remember about the object ball to trigger that same muscle memory. As Randy said, this is a little unnatural, since normally we trigger these muscle memories based on visual cues. This includes everything you do in your everyday life, writing, typing, opening a door, you complete all of these functions subconsciously as a result of direct visual cues and muscle memory.

In pool, you can definitely get away with it. As you said, you've already setup your aim, your tip position and you're ready to make your stroke. The only thing that is really impacted here is speed control. When you look at the object ball, you have the information about distance, which will trigger the correct muscle memory for the desired speed and position. Without looking at the object ball as you stroke, you're relying on your short-term memory from the last time you did look. This is obviously less exact, but I can't scientifically prove that.

Let me get back to muscle memory again. There are lots of instances where you trigger muscle memory based on non-visual cues, such as opening a door in the dark. Everyone has done this, and I'm sure everyone has missed the doorknob a few times. And that's exactly the point behind "keep your eye on the ball", without that direct visual information you're relying on memory to "locate" that doorknob. Sure, you can do it, afterall everyone finds the doorknob on the second or thrid try, but when you have the option of opening the door in the light, what's the better route to go?

I would speculate that focusing on the cue ball while you stroke is no different than completing the stroke with your eyes closed.
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that yes, looking at the CB can help contact the CB where you want but, listen to what Mark Avlon says. Work on achieving a straight repeatable stroke. That will eliminate the CB contact problem. Then for an eye pattern I think would be compatable to what you're already doing plus comply with generally the accepted method for pocketing balls, watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTyG00dhLg
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OntheMF...Nice post. I would agree with a lot of what you said here.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

OnTheMF said:
Hey Matt,

I'm not an instructor by any means, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I have received professional instruction in a number of sports, where "keep your eye on the ball" (or similar) was taught. Let me start by saying you're misinterpreting the saying "keep your eye on the ball."

The idea behind this instruction is to focus your eyes on the correct part of the "game" so that your brain gets the right information it needs to trigger the correct muscle memory. If you're not familiar with muscle memory I suggest you read up on it at wikipedia or somewhere similar. There's a wealth of information on the subject which dates all the way back to ancient greece. Muscle memory is at the core of all sports, and it's the reason we need to practice to get better.

Back to the point, "keep your eye on the ball" really means to look where you need to look, to get the right information about what you need to do. In a lot of sports this means "keep your eye on the ball", in automotive racing/motorcycle racing this means "look where you want to go", in pool this means look at your object ball. This will trigger the motor movements that are ingrained in your muscle memory for that shot. If your sight is focused on the cue ball then you're relying on what you remember about the object ball to trigger that same muscle memory. As Randy said, this is a little unnatural, since normally we trigger these muscle memories based on visual cues. This includes everything you do in your everyday life, writing, typing, opening a door, you complete all of these functions subconsciously as a result of direct visual cues and muscle memory.

In pool, you can definitely get away with it. As you said, you've already setup your aim, your tip position and you're ready to make your stroke. The only thing that is really impacted here is speed control. When you look at the object ball, you have the information about distance, which will trigger the correct muscle memory for the desired speed and position. Without looking at the object ball as you stroke, you're relying on your short-term memory from the last time you did look. This is obviously less exact, but I can't scientifically prove that.

Let me get back to muscle memory again. There are lots of instances where you trigger muscle memory based on non-visual cues, such as opening a door in the dark. Everyone has done this, and I'm sure everyone has missed the doorknob a few times. And that's exactly the point behind "keep your eye on the ball", without that direct visual information you're relying on memory to "locate" that doorknob. Sure, you can do it, afterall everyone finds the doorknob on the second or thrid try, but when you have the option of opening the door in the light, what's the better route to go?

I would speculate that focusing on the cue ball while you stroke is no different than completing the stroke with your eyes closed.
Click to expand...
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Matt...When you throw a dart, do you look at the dart...or the dartboard? :D Your cue goes where your eyes go.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

matthias1988 said:
I think the same way "keep your eye on the ball" is what my father used to say(and still says at times) when we go golfing, or playing baseball. That is why i think its logical to look at the cue but I am pretty unresistant too, and i just want to know a logical reason why it is beneficial or is it just preference.
Click to expand...
 
M

matthias1988

Registered
So what i am taking from this is looking at the OB will help you shoot towards the ball more, i can see why this would be beneficial when hitting the center axis because your driving the cut towards the spot that your aiming at but if hitting off center it would be flawed in my mind(i.e. left right). Speed control I believe it will be more beneficial looking OB because I can understand why looking at the distance will trigger muscle memory. The last thing I am taking away (which i practice about 90% of the time any way) is a nice constant, repeatable stroke and then it shouldn't matter.I can say that accuracy in my mind should not matter what ball you look at, heck you could be looking at another ball on another table as long as you were already lined up for the shot. Thank you for all the posts and for speed control I am going to start looking at the OB.
 
KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Hmmmm

justadub said:
Not to argue, truly. But for me, looking at the cue ball kinda is looking at where I'm going. If I've lined my cue up properly, in any event. At least it seems to be. Maybe it's the old golf training about keeping my eye on what I'm hitting.

(And I'm so inconsistent, especially lately, nothing I do could be construed as making much sense. Yes, I would love Pool School, and being taught the right way. I'm afraid it's almost bucket-list territory for me, heh heh. :embarrassed2: )
Click to expand...

Hey Dub,

Actually, looking at the cue ball is where you've been. Thus, why you do the practice stokes. You should be burning a hole into the cueball and bringing your tip back to that position exactly. Now you know where your tip is going to hit. Kinda like shooting a gun, once I use my sights to line up the target, I don't keep looking at the sight, but now look at the target.

Now the focus is on what we are trying to hit, the target, also knows as the object ball. To get and keep that repeatable straight stroke, your mind needs to know where you want to go. Your hands ALWAYS follow your eyes. Put your eyes on the object ball, and your hands will get you there. Sounds easy only because it is. The hard part is accepting it and not letting our "doubts" cause us from aiming again while we are already in the shooting position, or not being completely committed to the shot, gripping the cue too tight, or getting a bad case of the "Yips", etc.

Bucket List...... I guess I alwasy thought you were a lot younger??
 
justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
ChicagoRJ said:
The hard part is accepting it and not letting our "doubts" cause us from aiming again while we are already in the shooting position, or not being completely committed to the shot, gripping the cue too tight, or getting a bad case of the "Yips", etc.

Bingo! Ever since I jumped into this thread (OK, hijacked it, yikes) I've been trying to NOT look at the cue ball and find myself doing it anyway, which is worse! :p It got so bad last night that I had to laugh. Something else to work on, of course. I will do it, I'm certain. Just waiting on that "a-ha" moment when it clicks.

Bucket List...... I guess I alwasy thought you were a lot younger??

I dunno how old (or young) you thought I am, which is 47. Which, of course, emphazises how long I expect it to be before I get to do a pool school. :embarrassed2:

Hopefully I'm wrong and it happens sooner.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. And sorry for the re-hijack.
 
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KRJ

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Hmmm

RubaDub: QUOTE: I dunno how old (or young) you thought I am, which is 47. Which, of course, emphazises how long I expect it to be before I get to do a pool school.

Hopefully I'm wrong and it happens sooner.

****
Oh, only 47....you're a young man (I'm 48), but when you started talking about bucket lists you started to scare me! lol.

Sooner is better than later. I use to teach at one of the big pool schools and NOBODY was ever sorry they came !! Even the "grouchy type guys" finally admited they learned a ton when it was all over...
 
H

herkemeyer

Registered
Something that stuck with me

Matt,
I used to have the same problem until a more experienced player explained it to me like this. look at the object ball as your last sight. Trust your muscles to do what you want with the cue ball. Think of where you look when back up a car, you're not looking at the steering wheel. You're looking at where you are going, not where you're at.

Eric
 
justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
ChicagoRJ said:
RubaDub: QUOTE: I dunno how old (or young) you thought I am, which is 47. Which, of course, emphazises how long I expect it to be before I get to do a pool school.

Hopefully I'm wrong and it happens sooner.

****
Oh, only 47....you're a young man (I'm 48), but when you started talking about bucket lists you started to scare me! lol.

Sooner is better than later. I use to teach at one of the big pool schools and NOBODY was ever sorry they came !! Even the "grouchy type guys" finally admited they learned a ton when it was all over...
Click to expand...

I'm quite sure I would thoroughly enjoy pool school, and learn a bunch. Hopefully someday.

On a positive note, I managed a little better tonight at not looking at the CB last. I had to check myself a few times, but I did make progress. Made a few balls, was generally pleased with much of what I did. Better overall than had been the last few weeks. Small steps, but in the right direction.
 
pooltchr

pooltchr

Prof. Billiard Instructor
Silver Member
justadub said:
On a positive note, I managed a little better tonight at not looking at the CB last. I had to check myself a few times, but I did make progress.
Click to expand...

I do hope you were doing this during practice, and not when you were playing. You must work on these things during focused practice sessions. Practice is the time to work on fixing problems.
When you play, you can not practice.

If you chase two rabbits, they will both get away!

Steve
 
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