Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?

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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Folks:

While reading through a lot of threads here, I notice the preponderance of people opening their posts with, "I'm not an instructor, but ..." Or they'll close with "Not an instructor, just my $0.02" -- or something along those two lines.

And to be honest, I, for one, am sick of seeing it. I know that Fran Crimi posted a thread a while back asking for people to do this, "so that his/her non-instructor status can be readily identified" (or something along those lines -- Fran is certainly free to clarify/correct here), but I think we have this all BACK-ASSWARDS.

Instructors -- especially those with a formal certification -- should identify that in his/her signature, or "motto line" underneath his/her avatar. It's roughly analogous to email signatures -- if you have a certification, add it to your email signature. Those of us who work in the corporate world are all familiar with this practice.

But instead, I see all the good-intentioned folks who contribute to this forum wearing the "I'm not an instructor" placard around his/her neck, just for the privilege of playing in this sandbox.

We have this backwards, folks. Those who carry formal titles and certifications, should identify as such in their signature, as well as in their avatar comment line. (That latter one is important, because many of us turn signatures and avatars off to optimize our browsing experience here -- but the avatar comment line is *always* still visible.)

Don't force the peasants to wear an "I'm a peasant" sign around his/her neck for every one of his/her posts in these parts. (Yes, I know that comparison was a little pointed, but it's pointed for a reason.)

It goes without saying, if a reader wants to identify the credentials of the person making the post, the credentials themselves are readily displayed, and the lack of display of them, as well. The reader is completely free to notice these on his/her own. No prophylactic "I'm not an instructor" declarations should be needed.

And for those on the flip side of the coin, your posting history *is* your ticket (or not!) to post here. If you've been always the helpful type, civilly engaging topics and providing thought-provoking material, well, by golly, that's your ticket. Experience and history speak for themselves.

I know this post/thread is probably going to chap the *sses of some, but meh! <...Sean flicks his fingers outwards from under his chin...>, that pink elephant was in the corner, and I'm calling it out.

-Sean
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean...My only complaint is that it's really BASS-ACKWARDS! LMAO :grin:

All kiddin' aside, I agree with you, that posting history speaks volumes. While it is called the "Ask an Instructor" forum, I don't mind people contributing, as long as it's a positive contribution, based on knowledge or experience. It's funny to me, when some posters come on to that part of the forum, and post something that is either clearly incorrect, or just based on opinion...as in "well I've been playing for X years", etc. You and I both know players who have played for decades and still can't run three balls! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

but I think we have this all BACK-ASSWARDS.

-Sean
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually, Sean, I never suggested that anyone wear an ID ring around their neck. What I suggested was that since this is the ask the instructor forum that it would make sense that only instructors should be answering questions in this forum. For me, it's always been about respecting boundaries. In the end, it's all up to the moderators anyway.
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice post Sean.

This is the "Ask the Instructor" forum and I am with Fran on this one.

About the only times I have posted here is if the person asking for help said the word "anybody". Or if I can recommend a DVD that will help him. Trying to help someone understand pocket billiards using the written word is very difficult.

If a poster has established a relation with an instructor I dont feel that I should jump in and give advise. (not certified to teach) Thats just me, maybe others have a different opinion.

I do read all the posts though, can always find something of interest here.

Happy New Year All........:smile:

John
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Actually, Sean, I never suggested that anyone wear an ID ring around their neck. What I suggested was that since this is the ask the instructor forum that it would make sense that only instructors should be answering questions in this forum. For me, it's always been about respecting boundaries. In the end, it's all up to the moderators anyway.

Fran:

That "placard around the neck" (you say ID ring) was just a figure of speech. The thread escapes me at the moment, but I remember there was a lot of discourse about this topic, and it looks like the general consensus of it -- by virtue of all the folks now doing that prophylactic "I'm not an instructor" thing -- is that this was what was asked for.

This could likely have been a misunderstanding of the purpose of that thread.

While the respect for boundaries is one thing, there are plenty of non-instructor types that post here who may be able to offer a viewpoint -- from a "student" level, if you will -- that might've never been thought of before. We come across that often in all fields -- someone will throw something out there that, even though our certifications and such say one thing, the info still raises an eyebrow and the thought, "Hmm... I never thought of that!"

I do agree with the notion of "the title of instructor and doing instruction means experience in being a conduit of information." In my line of work, we call that "knowledge transfer." The person doing the knowledge transfer is, at the time, known as an instructor. And yes, I've often hung out that instructor shingle on those days when I'm doing the finishing touches on my projects (e.g. networks that I've built), when I'm turning over this brandy-new network to the customer, and I'm showing them how to use it.

Folks that do not have (or have never had) this "conduit of transferring knowledge" experience have no idea what it's like, and should respect that boundary. That doesn't mean that anyone can't express an opinion, as long as the general framing of it makes it obvious it's an opinion and not under the guise of coming from an instructor.

I encourage those reading this to carefully look at their own position. Do you come from an instructor or "knowledge-transfer conduit" place? If so, you're an instructor. If not, you aren't, and anything you offer is only an opinion, which should be framed as such.

"Framing" doesn't mean installing "I'm not an instructor" on every post here. It means respecting the boundary, and if you do have something to say which you think would add value (or if you want to respectfully disagree with a post, or otherwise offer a flip-side that you think the poster didn't think of), recognize it's an opinion, and should be stated as such.

Hope that helps clarify,
-Sean
 

Not Dead Ted

Formerly Dead Crab
Silver Member
Actually, Sean, I never suggested that anyone wear an ID ring around their neck. What I suggested was that since this is the ask the instructor forum that it would make sense that only instructors should be answering questions in this forum. For me, it's always been about respecting boundaries. In the end, it's all up to the moderators anyway.


Fair enough. How would you define what qualifies as "instructor" status?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Nice post Sean.

This is the "Ask the Instructor" forum and I am with Fran on this one.

About the only times I have posted here is if the person asking for help said the word "anybody". Or if I can recommend a DVD that will help him. Trying to help someone understand pocket billiards using the written word is very difficult.

If a poster has established a relation with an instructor I dont feel that I should jump in and give advise. (not certified to teach) Thats just me, maybe others have a different opinion.

I do read all the posts though, can always find something of interest here.

Happy New Year All........:smile:

John

Thanks Randy, Scott, and John.

To answer your question, John, the paradox is that I understand Fran's frustrations with everyone-and-their-mother jumping in and offering "help" on the "Ask the Instructor" forum. I totally get it. But in this case, the medicine is worse than the disease.

The root issue was not whether anyone posting was a true dyed-in-the-wool instructor, but rather the "free-for-all" nature of people posting here with "help," without respecting the boundary.

Hope this helps clarify,
-Sean
 

oshua86

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fair enough. How would you define what qualifies as "instructor" status?

I agree with this questions. I don't post much around AZ but I read a lot of the threads and the reason why I don't post more is because I have seen all the drama that constantly goes around here and people taking things wayyy to personal, I'm here because of pool, the knowledge and my hunger to get better at the game. However, I am a certified PBIA instructor, but I have restrained myself from posting or giving any kind of advise at all because I feel like I would get my ass handed to me on this forum specially because I constantly ask for advise and my "lack" of written history on the forum. Also, having an instructor certification doesn't mean you are a good instructor, I spend a lot of money getting lessons from instructors, books, DVDs, getting lessons from pros and world class players just in my quest to progress my game in the shortest amount of time, and in this quest I have gotten lessons from "instructors" that are just plain wrong, from the physics point of view of the game, from the mental point of view and more importantly from the logical point of view. So the question stands, what would qualify you as an instructor status on this forum then?
 

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Fair enough. How would you define what qualifies as "instructor" status?



Teaching: The art of communication.
A "transfer" of knowledge.
Helping a student to attain "understanding/skill.

Instructor: A person who's occupation is teaching.

Certified Instructor: A person who's occupation is teaching.
This person is constantly continuing their
teaching & billiard knowledge. A person who has
been up-graded by a higher level educator.

Maybe the Certified should sign in as certified and the others sign in as teachers?

randyg
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Teaching: The art of communication.
A "transfer" of knowledge.
Helping a student to attain "understanding/skill.

Instructor: A person who's occupation is teaching.

Certified Instructor: A person who's occupation is teaching.
This person is constantly continuing their
teaching & billiard knowledge. A person who has
been up-graded by a higher level educator.

Maybe the Certified should sign in as certified and the others sign in as teachers?

randyg

Very funny, Randy!

Actually, getting back to the original post, it's all about your profile identifying who you are. If your instructor status (certified or not) is identified in your profile, <...wipes hands together...> the job is done. No need to do anything more.

Anyone reading that person's posts merely needs to look at the profile of that person -- or signature, if they are displaying one -- to know this is truly an instructor posting. Or, maybe the posting history of that person is known, and that's that person's ticket.

It's the flip-side that gets me -- making the peasants identify themselves as peasants, which is completely wrong.

-Sean
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fair enough. How would you define what qualifies as "instructor" status?

I think it should be up to the individual to determine if he or she is a teacher. I also have stated many times in this forum that I think no certificate should be necessary to answer questions here. I think everyone knows if they are a teacher or not. Teachers have the unique perspective of working with many different types of players and encountering many different situations. They also have a responsibility when they teach someone. They are held accountable for what they teach.
 
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quadrary

Custom Leather Cue Cases
Silver Member
Not an instructor {lol} but a great many of the questions asked here could be answered by any competent player as long as the reply is kept positive and correct i see no problem. I have posted replys here and used the i am not predicate to my response but i feel i fave always been to the point positive and truthful and anyone who wishes can take it or leave it.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I agree with this questions. I don't post much around AZ but I read a lot of the threads and the reason why I don't post more is because I have seen all the drama that constantly goes around here and people taking things wayyy to personal, I'm here because of pool, the knowledge and my hunger to get better at the game. However, I am a certified PBIA instructor, but I have restrained myself from posting or giving any kind of advise at all because I feel like I would get my ass handed to me on this forum specially because I constantly ask for advise and my "lack" of written history on the forum. Also, having an instructor certification doesn't mean you are a good instructor, I spend a lot of money getting lessons from instructors, books, DVDs, getting lessons from pros and world class players just in my quest to progress my game in the shortest amount of time, and in this quest I have gotten lessons from "instructors" that are just plain wrong, from the physics point of view of the game, from the mental point of view and more importantly from the logical point of view. So the question stands, what would qualify you as an instructor status on this forum then?

oshua,

I for one appreciate your candor & can also emphathize with you albeit from a slightly different perspective.

Out of curiousity, of the 'instructors' that you were displeased or unsatisfied with, were they 'fly by night' types or were they certified like yourself?

Best Wishes & Regards,
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Good posting Sean :)

There are so many very know ledged guys who ve never been certificated and still brilliant instructors/teachers/trainers. I m still confused how often this is a discussion worth.
At least the student has to rate who helped him finally. And the matter of choosing the right guy....well-here you have always a small chance to choose perhaps also the wrong guy ^^

Paper makes not an instructor- knowledge, expirience and passion is necessary-nothing else.
 

oshua86

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
oshua,

I for one appreciate your candor & can also emphathize with you albeit from a slightly different perspective.

Out of curiousity, of the 'instructors' that you were displeased or unsatisfied with, were they 'fly by night' types or were they certified like yourself?

Best Wishes & Regards,

Thank you English, you seem to be very open minded for what I have read in your post, a good quality in the pool world. As far as the instructors that I have been dissatisfied with they were usually guys that would come up to me in my early days and tell me "hey if you give me 20-40 bucks I'll teach you this and that", or just road players; then figuring out that person really had no idea what he was talking about, or just teaching me concepts that were just plain wrong from a logical point of view, the fact that he had made it work for himself didn't mean he was right, and this was done by very competent players too.

The best teacher I've ever had and I still go to him for advise doesn't even play pool anymore, he owns a dance studio now and teaches dance, but he was a road player years ago; now, he has a great deal of knowledge, very technical, but what makes him great is his ability to relate to the student, the first lesson I got from him he didn't charge me, and we talked very little pool, he got to know me, asked me what other hobbies I've had, what am I good at, what do I do for work etc, and then has had this great ability to either relate to me or teach me concepts based on what I already know as a person.
A good instructor is hard to find, knowledge is not everything, Earl worked with me for about 2 months this year before he moved to NY, he is a hell of a player and a misunderstood genious when it comes to the game, he loves teaching, but he is hard to understand as a teacher becuse it's hard for him to put what he sees in his mind into words and he doesn't relate much to you. I did learn a great deal from him but with a lot of work from my part.

On a different note, I want to give me two cents on the certification subject. I've seen many posts of people talking about how many certifed instructors are bad and they don't know what they are talking about blah blah blah... I think the certified instructor program is a great one, if the instructors stick to teaching what the program tells you to teach I don't see what kind of harm they can inflict, we need to understand that the vast majority of people seeking instruction are weak players, at least that's my experience, I never advertise I'm a certified instructor because the main reason I got the certification was to help my own game and learn how to teach my friends, it has been extended to a lot of people because of the PBIA website and people has called for lessons from there, but 90% of the people seeking lessons are league players SL1-SL4 and only a couple of SL7s that in my opinion had a very weak game at best. So for teaching those people I think any certified instructor will so fine and would help their games as long as they stick to the program; once you get to an advance level this is where it gets tough, it's hard to find good knowledge out there and you have to spend a lot of money just for a few nuggets of helpful information... Like I said before, "in the multitude of advisers you will find wisdom itself" and that's why this community is so awesome even with it's craziness and all that lol.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Folks:

While reading through a lot of threads here, I notice the preponderance of people opening their posts with, "I'm not an instructor, but ..." Or they'll close with "Not an instructor, just my $0.02" -- or something along those two lines.

And to be honest, I, for one, am sick of seeing it. I know that Fran Crimi posted a thread a while back asking for people to do this, "so that his/her non-instructor status can be readily identified" (or something along those lines -- Fran is certainly free to clarify/correct here), but I think we have this all BACK-ASSWARDS.

Instructors -- especially those with a formal certification -- should identify that in his/her signature, or "motto line" underneath his/her avatar. It's roughly analogous to email signatures -- if you have a certification, add it to your email signature. Those of us who work in the corporate world are all familiar with this practice.

But instead, I see all the good-intentioned folks who contribute to this forum wearing the "I'm not an instructor" placard around his/her neck, just for the privilege of playing in this sandbox.

We have this backwards, folks. Those who carry formal titles and certifications, should identify as such in their signature, as well as in their avatar comment line. (That latter one is important, because many of us turn signatures and avatars off to optimize our browsing experience here -- but the avatar comment line is *always* still visible.)

Don't force the peasants to wear an "I'm a peasant" sign around his/her neck for every one of his/her posts in these parts. (Yes, I know that comparison was a little pointed, but it's pointed for a reason.)

It goes without saying, if a reader wants to identify the credentials of the person making the post, the credentials themselves are readily displayed, and the lack of display of them, as well. The reader is completely free to notice these on his/her own. No prophylactic "I'm not an instructor" declarations should be needed.

And for those on the flip side of the coin, your posting history *is* your ticket (or not!) to post here. If you've been always the helpful type, civilly engaging topics and providing thought-provoking material, well, by golly, that's your ticket. Experience and history speak for themselves.

I know this post/thread is probably going to chap the *sses of some, but meh! <...Sean flicks his fingers outwards from under his chin...>, that pink elephant was in the corner, and I'm calling it out.

-Sean

im not an instructor and i havent read all the replies.....:eek:
but i think since this IS the ask an instructor section i take it that the responders are instructors and therefeore the non instructors should make that clear.
the instructors if certified should have that somewhere visible so the reader can see it and recognize that responder as a certified instructor i think is a good idea
just my .02 cents

sorry if i used a few of your pet peeve expressions in my post
 

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
I'm not a certified instructor but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night........

I'm feeling pretty qualified. lol
 

TheThaiger

Banned
As a minimum, I'd say anyone offering advice about other people's strokes should link a youtube clip of them playing.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. The spotlight should shine on those that are setting the scene and selling their services.

Right, gotta go - I need to find a way to further optimise my browsing experience. It'll make my life complete. :rolleyes:
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I understand both sides of the discussion, but I fear that the greatest benefit of a forum can get lost in these discussions. The interactions and experiences from everyone.

That is not to minimize what Fran is concerned about. I totally get that, and understand completely. I appreciate what the instructors (and teachers, heh) do here immensely.

I hope I don't annoy you, Sean, cuz I have no problem dropping a little blurb about being simply a reader with an associated thought on the subject, and identifying myself as such.

I just hope that we don't lose the conversational nature of a forum in the process.
 
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