Grip vs. Elbow

Lockbox · Oct 24, 2016

Hi all,

My dilemma is recently I changed my grip. It has always been tight and I loosened it up and it feels great - i'm no longer gripping the cue tightly. However, I noticed that I was being more inconsistent because my arm, for lack of a better description, was too loose causing me to drop my elbow prematurely.

I am trying to adopt a pure pendulum stroke and have thus far come to the conclusion that the right way to do this is to (1) snap the forearm "into" the bicep while maintaining my elbow at a consistent height while simultaneously (2) keeping a loose grip.

Overall, it seems like a balancing act that is taking some work. My follow-through has shortened a little bit as well (4-6 inches whereas with my "piston" type stroke it was longer). However, I have seen a little more consistency in my shots when I am focusing on doing the abovementioned things.

Question for all of the instructor here: is there anything you would say is wrong? That I should change? Thoughts are appreciated...

randyg · Oct 24, 2016

Lockbox said:
Hi all,

My dilemma is recently I changed my grip. It has always been tight and I loosened it up and it feels great - i'm no longer gripping the cue tightly. However, I noticed that I was being more inconsistent because my arm, for lack of a better description, was too loose causing me to drop my elbow prematurely.

I am trying to adopt a pure pendulum stroke and have thus far come to the conclusion that the right way to do this is to (1) snap the forearm "into" the bicep while maintaining my elbow at a consistent height while simultaneously (2) keeping a loose grip.

Overall, it seems like a balancing act that is taking some work. My follow-through has shortened a little bit as well (4-6 inches whereas with my "piston" type stroke it was longer). However, I have seen a little more consistency in my shots when I am focusing on doing the abovementioned things.

Question for all of the instructor here: is there anything you would say is wrong? That I should change? Thoughts are appreciated...

Please find a SPF Instructor and get help.

randyg

Gorramjayne · Oct 24, 2016

If you get low with a high elbow, try keeping your thumb in the "hitchhiker" position, that is make sure you're flexing your thumb even when it's touching the cue. This lets you keep a loose grip while keeping your wrist stiffer so your hand and forearm work as one, which will make your elbow easier to manage since that will then be the only thing to move.

Experimentation is important.

When you change one thing, you'll discover that 10 other things you never even thought about will need to change as well, the human skeletal system is an impossibly complicated thing. Don't get discouraged if a change makes you start shanking shots and hopping balls off the table, a small turn of the wrist, flex of one finger, or small stance adjustment could be all it takes to get it under perfect control. And there are hundreds of ways to do a loose grip and another hundred ways to do a firm grip, so you'll have a thousand possible adjustments to make a be new grip work the way you want. A patient instructor and your own dedication on the table will help you dial in your stroke.

FranCrimi · Oct 24, 2016

Lockbox said:
Hi all,

My dilemma is recently I changed my grip. It has always been tight and I loosened it up and it feels great - i'm no longer gripping the cue tightly. However, I noticed that I was being more inconsistent because my arm, for lack of a better description, was too loose causing me to drop my elbow prematurely.

I am trying to adopt a pure pendulum stroke and have thus far come to the conclusion that the right way to do this is to (1) snap the forearm "into" the bicep while maintaining my elbow at a consistent height while simultaneously (2) keeping a loose grip.

Overall, it seems like a balancing act that is taking some work. My follow-through has shortened a little bit as well (4-6 inches whereas with my "piston" type stroke it was longer). However, I have seen a little more consistency in my shots when I am focusing on doing the abovementioned things.

Question for all of the instructor here: is there anything you would say is wrong? That I should change? Thoughts are appreciated...

Yes, you are on the right track in your thinking if your goal is to adopt what you call a pure pendulum stroke. (It isn't really a pendulum but I know what you mean.)

Snapping the forearm into the bicep while maintaining a fixed elbow position will work if that's what you are trying to accomplish. A loose grip is good but not too loose where you lose the cue.

BilliardsAbout · Oct 25, 2016

Lockbox said:
Hi all,

My dilemma is recently I changed my grip. It has always been tight and I loosened it up and it feels great - i'm no longer gripping the cue tightly. However, I noticed that I was being more inconsistent because my arm, for lack of a better description, was too loose causing me to drop my elbow prematurely.

I am trying to adopt a pure pendulum stroke and have thus far come to the conclusion that the right way to do this is to (1) snap the forearm "into" the bicep while maintaining my elbow at a consistent height while simultaneously (2) keeping a loose grip.

Overall, it seems like a balancing act that is taking some work. My follow-through has shortened a little bit as well (4-6 inches whereas with my "piston" type stroke it was longer). However, I have seen a little more consistency in my shots when I am focusing on doing the abovementioned things.

Question for all of the instructor here: is there anything you would say is wrong? That I should change? Thoughts are appreciated...

Questions:

1. The looser grip "feels great" but are you pocketing more balls because of it?

2. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being strongest possible grip, where did you grip before, and also, what is the number of your grip now?

3. Did you use a piston or J stroke before? Who told you it was a need to go to a pendulum stroke? Are you aware that different fine players use different stroke styles?

4. Has anyone mentioned that it's best to adopt one change at one time? (Not a good choice to both lighten your grip and change your stroke in the same week!)

Lockbox · Oct 26, 2016

BilliardsAbout said:
Questions:

1. The looser grip "feels great" but are you pocketing more balls because of it?

2. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being strongest possible grip, where did you grip before, and also, what is the number of your grip now?

3. Did you use a piston or J stroke before? Who told you it was a need to go to a pendulum stroke? Are you aware that different fine players use different stroke styles?

4. Has anyone mentioned that it's best to adopt one change at one time? (Not a good choice to both lighten your grip and change your stroke in the same week!)

1. Yes, actually. But what i'm focused on right now is just straightening out my stroke. In terms of straight-in shots, yes I am making more.

2. It's not so much that I gripped harder, but that my wrist was cocked. This in turn created a stronger grip. I'd say a 6 before, maybe a 2-3 now.

3. Yes. I am choosing to emulate a pendulum style.

4. Are you aware that changing one aspect of your game can affect other portions? What I said was that I changed my grip, and after a few days of shooting noticed my elbow was inadvertently dropping. So now I am balancing holding my elbow up while maintaining a loose grip on the cue.

Yes, you are on the right track in your thinking if your goal is to adopt what you call a pure pendulum stroke. (It isn't really a pendulum but I know what you mean.)

Snapping the forearm into the bicep while maintaining a fixed elbow position will work if that's what you are trying to accomplish. A loose grip is good but not too loose where you lose the cue.

Much appreciated, Fran.

Scott Lee · Oct 26, 2016

Baloney...We teach changing those things and more...all in a 3 day weekend...and the students adapt successfully.

To the OP: Like Randy said...find an SPF instructor, and get yourself some help.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BilliardsAbout said:
4. Has anyone mentioned that it's best to adopt one change at one time? (Not a good choice to both lighten your grip and change your stroke in the same week!)

BilliardsAbout · Oct 27, 2016

Scott Lee said:
Baloney...We teach changing those things and more...all in a 3 day weekend...and the students adapt successfully.

To the OP: Like Randy said...find an SPF instructor, and get yourself some help.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks for the input, but it's reasonable to suggest that a student working on their own, without an instructor, be cautious in making multiple changes at once.

I likewise teach some of my students to make multiple changes in a weekend or even shorter session, although I try to limit the changes I make to students who've been playing for decades and already have strong preferences and habits.

BilliardsAbout · Oct 27, 2016

Lockbox said:
1. Yes, actually. But what i'm focused on right now is just straightening out my stroke. In terms of straight-in shots, yes I am making more.

2. It's not so much that I gripped harder, but that my wrist was cocked. This in turn created a stronger grip. I'd say a 6 before, maybe a 2-3 now.

3. Yes. I am choosing to emulate a pendulum style.

4. Are you aware that changing one aspect of your game can affect other portions? What I said was that I changed my grip, and after a few days of shooting noticed my elbow was inadvertently dropping. So now I am balancing holding my elbow up while maintaining a loose grip on the cue.

Much appreciated, Fran.

Thank you. I and other fine teachers here are available for a lesson. For example, consider how long you're trying to keep the elbow up. Many fine players drop the elbow post-cue ball impact.

Thanks.

ronscuba · Oct 27, 2016

BilliardsAbout said:
Thanks for the input, but it's reasonable to suggest that a student working on their own, without an instructor, be cautious in making multiple changes at once.

I likewise teach some of my students to make multiple changes in a weekend or even shorter session, although I try to limit the changes I make to students who've been playing for decades and already have strong preferences and habits.

I agree with this.

Online discussions in an internet forum will never replace live in person lessons, but I do think it is odd to respond "go find an spf instructor" in the "Ask the Instructor" section.

FranCrimi · Oct 27, 2016

Lockbox said:
1. Yes, actually. But what i'm focused on right now is just straightening out my stroke. In terms of straight-in shots, yes I am making more.

2. It's not so much that I gripped harder, but that my wrist was cocked. This in turn created a stronger grip. I'd say a 6 before, maybe a 2-3 now.

3. Yes. I am choosing to emulate a pendulum style.

4. Are you aware that changing one aspect of your game can affect other portions? What I said was that I changed my grip, and after a few days of shooting noticed my elbow was inadvertently dropping. So now I am balancing holding my elbow up while maintaining a loose grip on the cue.

Much appreciated, Fran.

Happy to help. Also,keep in mind that with that type of stroke you have to stand at least fairly low to the table or you'll wind up with a pretty severe angle of attack of your cue stick as you stroke.

Lockbox · Oct 27, 2016

Thank you for the responses, everyone. I agree that it's a bit odd to hear "go get some help" on an online forum. To assuage everyone's concerns, I have already taken a few lessons and have sought out and will take more lessons with other instructors. Taking lessons and asking for input here aren't mutually exclusive. But I do understand that lessons are the way to go and am heeding this advice.

Fran, I appreciate your feedback. I am actually pretty low in my stance. With my rear foot under my shooting hand, my back leg is typically straight and the cue makes contact with my chest and chin.

As an aside, I played in my first 8 ball tournament last night. I didn't embarrass myself, losing 3-2, 3-2 but it was quite an experience. Not to ask another question in this thread, but what's the best way to improve: (1) keep playing tournaments; or (2) occassionally play in a tournament but continue practicing/lessons? At this point in time, i'm leaning towards playing maybe biweekly. Thank you again for all the advice!

FranCrimi · Oct 28, 2016

Lockbox said:
Thank you for the responses, everyone. I agree that it's a bit odd to hear "go get some help" on an online forum. To assuage everyone's concerns, I have already taken a few lessons and have sought out and will take more lessons with other instructors. Taking lessons and asking for input here aren't mutually exclusive. But I do understand that lessons are the way to go and am heeding this advice.

Fran, I appreciate your feedback. I am actually pretty low in my stance. With my rear foot under my shooting hand, my back leg is typically straight and the cue makes contact with my chest and chin.

As an aside, I played in my first 8 ball tournament last night. I didn't embarrass myself, losing 3-2, 3-2 but it was quite an experience. Not to ask another question in this thread, but what's the best way to improve: (1) keep playing tournaments; or (2) occassionally play in a tournament but continue practicing/lessons? At this point in time, i'm leaning towards playing maybe biweekly. Thank you again for all the advice!

Well, next time you feel like experimenting, keep in mind that it's not necessary for your cue stick to hit your chest in your follow through. Some teachers here are big advocates of that. I'm not one of them. A slight stance and weight distribution adjustment is all that is needed for an unimpeded arm swing. If you're going to choose the stance where your arm hits your chest, make sure you can fully close your arm before it hits your chest.

As for how to get better: Every time you get on a table to shoot pool, you are in position to improve. In order of importance: 1) Overall table time hours, 2) Practice time, and 3)Competition time. Competition is important because it's where you test yourself and see where you truly are because you don't get a second chance to shoot a shot. But you have to experiment to improve and you can only do that during practice.

If you suddenly find yourself competing more than practicing, it's time for you to get back to work on your game. Always work on your game.

BasementDweller · Oct 28, 2016

I just love it when someone posts a question and is told to go somewhere else for the answer. That just warms my heart.

nine_ball6970 · Oct 28, 2016

BasementDweller said:
I just love it when someone posts a question and is told to go somewhere else for the answer. That just warms my heart.

Not that my opinion matters, but I felt I was pretty knowledgeable about pool and the fundamentals. I took a lesson and there was a large gap between what I thought I was doing and what I was actually doing. If I hadn't taken the lesson and gotten a video review, I still would be doing those same things wrong.

Asking questions on here is great and all but if you aren't able to implement the advice correctly you haven't accomplished much of anything.

BasementDweller · Oct 28, 2016

That may be true nine_ball6970 but this is the Ask the Instructor Forum. It's not the I'm Looking for an Instructor Forum.

I don't think I have ever read this single sentence from Fran Crimi in response to a legitimate question:

"Please find an instructor and get help."

There are some that should follow her lead because otherwise they just come across as if they are fishing for clients. It's really tacky to say the least.

Lockbox · Oct 28, 2016

BasementDweller said:
That may be true nine_ball6970 but this is the Ask the Instructor Forum. It's not the I'm Looking for an Instructor Forum.

I don't think I have ever read this single sentence from Fran Crimi in response to a legitimate question:

"Please find an instructor and get help."

There are some that should follow her lead because otherwise they just come across as if they are fishing for clients. It's really tacky to say the least.

So i'll chime in here to agree with this, but to add something. As someone who has taken lessons in almost every endeavor in my life, I understand the value and utility of a personal instructor and, simultaneously, understand that not everyone gets this. Therefore, I think there is merit to recommending someone seek instruction.

However, if you want to be helpful on a forum, in addition to recommending instruction, maybe one could offer their opinion/thoughts on the matter at hand as well. I think this would be constructive and still gets to the point that instruction in person may be what is needed.

I do appreciate all of the responses thus far, nonetheless.

bbb · Oct 29, 2016

check your pm

FranCrimi · Oct 30, 2016

BasementDweller said:
That may be true nine_ball6970 but this is the Ask the Instructor Forum. It's not the I'm Looking for an Instructor Forum.

I don't think I have ever read this single sentence from Fran Crimi in response to a legitimate question:

"Please find an instructor and get help."

There are some that should follow her lead because otherwise they just come across as if they are fishing for clients. It's really tacky to say the least.

Thanks for noticing that about me. I spend a substantial amount of time thinking about questions that are posted here. My answers aren't arbitrary.

Not everyone is capable of addressing a particular issue sight unseen, and I think that many answers I've read in this forum, unfortunately, are more wrong than right. Some people are actually better off referring a player to take a lesson rather than try to articulate an answer here.

Ratta · Nov 17, 2016

FranCrimi said:
Well, next time you feel like experimenting, keep in mind that it's not necessary for your cue stick to hit your chest in your follow through. Some teachers here are big advocates of that. I'm not one of them. A slight stance and weight distribution adjustment is all that is needed for an unimpeded arm swing. If you're going to choose the stance where your arm hits your chest, make sure you can fully close your arm before it hits your chest.

As for how to get better: Every time you get on a table to shoot pool, you are in position to improve. In order of importance: 1) Overall table time hours, 2) Practice time, and 3)Competition time. Competition is important because it's where you test yourself and see where you truly are because you don't get a second chance to shoot a shot. But you have to experiment to improve and you can only do that during practice.

If you suddenly find yourself competing more than practicing, it's time for you to get back to work on your game. Always work on your game.

As usual...."hats off" - very well stated and described in a very understandable manner.
Hope you re doing great Fran- Have a great day

best from overseas,

Ingo

Grip vs. Elbow

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