Allowable Margin for Error -- Contact Point vs Fractional Aim Point

BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
Can you make another drawing for the "feel method" and how it's determined, visualized, and linked up between the two balls? What is the fail safe part of it that makes it better to use than one of the above?
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Uh.....no. That's as silly as asking someone to make a drawing that will explain or illustrate how they can drive a car while carry on a conversation or thinking about other things that have nothing to do with driving the car.

Believe it or not, when you consiously repeat the same actions over and over, based on visual input or other sensory input, your brain is being programmed to eventually perform the action without the need of conscious effort. It's an automatic process, and it happens with everyone in any task or skill that is being learned.

This includes aiming pool shots, regardless of what method anyone uses, after enough conscious repetition, conscious fine tuning/adjustments, the process ends up being embedded into the subconscious part of the mind. It becomes automatic. The best anyone can do is explain or show how they learned to it initially, the steps they used that eventually led to the ability to perform automatically without actually having to think about it.

In other words, the best you can do is say, "Here, do this...Stand right here and look there, then there, then lineup here and put you cue in line here, then shoot. It's that simple. Just see and do."

Sure, it's simple to you because you've developed the ability to do it automatically, no longer consciously making any adjustments to make it worj
K. You've done it enough times that those little adjustments eventually became automatic, something you no longer think about. You see, then do. In other words, you consciously privide visual input, which then prompts the subconscious program you so diligently worked to develop. The person you're teaching will have to develop their own subconscious program as well before your instructions materialize into a consistent working method.
 
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BC21

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duckie said:
Well..........by your drawing......you don’t know anything about ghost ball.

The ghost ball circle does not overlap the OB circle.

The proper representation of the ghost ball and OB is two circles, side by side, with the edges of the circles touching at some point......never ghost ball circle overlapping OB circle.
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That makes no sense to me. Two circles touching side by side, but not overlapping?? You do realize my drawing is not an overhead view, but the view as seen from behind the cb? So you are saying the proper ghostball technique is to treat the spherical ball and ghostball like a simple circles? That seems tough to do while trying to do from behind the cb.

I thought the ghostball was simply imagining where the cb needs to be, which is what I've drawn here. Since it's it doesn't really exist, visually, I suppose we can make up our own idea of where it should be shown when illustrated on paper.
 
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SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
Uh.....no. That's as silly as asking someone to make a drawing that will explain or illustrate how they can drive a car while carry on a conversation or thinking about other things that have nothing to do with driving the car.

I knew a comparison analogy would be forthcoming right off the bat.
Stick to pool and the balls.

Believe it or not, when you consiously repeat the same actions over and over, based on visual input or other sensory input, your brain is being programmed to eventually perform the action without the need of conscious effort. It's an automatic process, and it happens with everyone in any task or skill that is being learned.

The brain doesn't have eyes. The eyes do the job. Tell me what the eyes see.

This includes aiming pool shots, regardless of what method anyone uses, after enough conscious repetition, conscious fine tuning/adjustments, the process ends up being embedded into the subconscious part of the mind. It becomes automatic. The best anyone can do is explain or show how they learned to it initially, the steps they used that eventually led to the ability to perform automatically without actually having to think about it.

Putting a blindfold on would be automatic. Tell me what the eyes are seeing whether it's been done a billion times or more.

In other words, the best you can do is say, "Here, do this...Stand right here and look there, then there, then lineup here and put you cue in line here, then shoot. It's that simple. Just see and do."

SEE WHAT?

Sure, it's simple to you because you've developed the ability to do it automatically, no longer consciously making any adjustments to make it worj
K. You've done it enough times that those little adjustments eventually became automatic, something you no longer think about. You see, then do. In other words, you consciously privide visual input, which then prompts the subconscious program you so diligently worked to develop. The person you're teaching will have to develop their own subconscious program as well before your instructions materialize into a consistent working method.
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What you just wrote above is all total bullshit. NOTHING is automatic in pool! The eyes and thinking are always going hand in hand. Every day isn't same as the day before, the week before, or the month before.

Our vision could be off, we're tired, the nerves aren't the same, the cue feels heavier or lighter, we get sloppy in our stance and PSR which isn't the same, lighting could be different. If pool was as easy as you try to make it seem we'd all be champions.

You are NOT! And neither am I! I know for a fact the pros using a particular method of aiming don't fall back to what they learned as teenagers. They go through the visuals and process which takes a matter of a couple of seconds.

Cut the crap Brian. Tell me what your eyes tell you with the balls in the FEEL method. Not some esoteric mumbo jumbo garbage. Draw an illustration of the finished product like the rest of them. BALLS MUST CONNECT VISUALLY IN THE END.
 
BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:


Cut the crap Brian. Tell me what your eyes tell you with the balls in the FEEL method. Not some esoteric mumbo jumbo garbage. Draw an illustration of the finished product like the rest of them. BALLS MUST CONNECT VISUALLY IN THE END.
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I have already. There are three examples. I see the cb and ob relationship, see/visualize where the cb needs to be (based on years of doing it), which is shown in the middle shot in the diagram. Sometimes I just look at the the ob, where it is on the table in ref to the pocket, then aim straight through the cb to a specific point based on the width of the ob, as shown in the last shot in the diagram, the fractional aim shot.
 
SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
I have already. There are three examples. I see the cb and ob relationship,

OK. This is better and more like it. Finally something the EYES are seeing and concrete.

see/visualize where the cb needs to be (based on years of doing it), which is shown in the middle shot in the diagram.

You called that ghost ball. Do you really mean telescoping the actual CB forward to see an overlap on the OB or something else. Ghost ball is where the center of the CB is at contact and all imagination. It could be on the ball or off the ball.

Overlapping and telescoping the actual CB and OB together is not GB.

Sometimes I just look at the the ob, where it is on the table in ref to the pocket, then aim straight through the cb to a specific point based on the width of the ob, as shown in the last shot in the diagram, the fractional aim shot.
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That's visualization when there's a specific point known by identifying the contact point from standing to the side of the OB in a straight line to the pocket or knowing the numerical matchups from Joe Tucker's contact point aiming system.

It's also knowing the fractions based on what you calculated for the system.

You're HOMING IN visually to something because you're trained to know what to look for. Which is the way it should be. WTF does "feel" mean from start to finish other than when you set up to visualize a unification of the two balls by whatever method, you then think "something looks off" and you change your aim point to something else. That could be called "feel" when in reality it's specifically DOUBT.

It's insanity NOT to use specific visuals, whatever they may be, rather than "feel" or guesswork right from the start of each shot. A system well known and trained to do from years of experience is still and always the basis for accuracy and consistency.

It is KNOWN, TRIED, TRUE and TESTED. Should never require FEEL or DOUBT to make adjustments.
 
BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
That's visualization when there's a specific point known by identifying the contact point from standing to the side of the OB in a straight line to the pocket or knowing the numerical matchups from Joe Tucker's contact point aiming system.

It's also knowing the fractions based on what you calculated for the system.

You're HOMING IN visually to something because you're trained to know what to look for. Which is the way it should be. WTF does "feel" mean from start to finish other than when you set up to visualize a unification of the two balls by whatever method, you then think "something looks off" and you change your aim point to something else. That could be called "feel" when in reality it's specifically DOUBT.

It's insanity NOT to use specific visuals, whatever they may be, rather than "feel" or guesswork right from the start of each shot. A system well known and trained to do from years of experience is still and always the basis for accuracy and consistency.

It is KNOWN, TRIED, TRUE and TESTED. Should never require FEEL or DOUBT to make adjustments.
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Feel and doubt are not the same thing. Feel is something you sense based on sensory inputs. Doubt is something you feel when the inputs don't quite match up with what you know or understand.

When you perform a halftip manual pivot or sweep, for example, you are not preforming this from an exact halftip offset. You might "feel" you are, but you're not. With a 14mm shaft you'd have to have a 7mm offset, and with a 12mm shaft you'd need a 6mm offset. How do you know you are performing a perfect 6 or 7mm offset everytime? You FEEL it. Or better yet, you've done it so many times that your brain says "yes, this looks and feels right", and it's not exactly 6 or 7mm everytime. It's whatever you feel looks right, based on countless hours of doing it, as you're lining up the shot from that slight offset angle.

Your eyes and body position provide input to the brain, and your brain uses that input, compares it to the hundreds or thousands of times you've done it, and if everything matches up in accordance with your developed skill/experience, you pull the trigger. If everything doesn't match up, if it doesn't FEEL or look right, you should stand up and approach the shot again. A feeling that something is wrong could be triggered by what you're seeing, what you're physically feeling, what you're hearing, what your thinking, etc...

To me, that's "feel". You can define it anyway you like.
 
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SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
Feel and doubt are not the same thing. Feel is something you sense based on sensory inputs. Doubt is something you feel when the inputs don't quite match up with what you know or understand.

But then you try to correct in mid course by FEEL. It's either caused by doubt, visually it doesn't look quite right (although it actually could be) and the alteration isn't done by something defined but by what "looks" more right...feel.


Your eyes and body position provide input to the brain, and your brain uses that input, compares it to the hundreds or thousands of times you've done it, and if everything matches up in accordance with your developed skill/experience, you pull the trigger. If everything doesn't match up, if it doesn't FEEL or look right, you should stand up and approach the shot again. A feeling that something is wrong could be triggered by what you're seeing, what you're physically feeling, what you're hearing, what your thinking, etc...

To me, that's "feel". You can define it anyway you like.
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I can agree with this last paragraph completely.

But that's NOT how "feel" is used by most or you. When someone says "I aim by feel" it's from the very start as if there are NO specific visual keys to lock onto for the eyes, head, body, feet, cue and matching up the alignment of CB to OB for specifically angled shots.

It's like it's so automatic that you immediately walk into the shot, set up, the balls are already perfectly aligned from past experiences, you pull the cue back and stroke,
with all balls going in successfully.

"Feel" comes in with the touch you have for speed and type of stroke needed to move the CB into place for that specific shot and the position for the next shot angle. It could also be how you're stroking the cue in a given game or session. Some days it's smooth and controlled...or it can be a little short, jerky or poking...how hard to hit the CB to get it perfectly set up for the correct angle on the next shot at the opposite side and end of the table...speed for a bank shot...THOSE are examples of FEEL.

Not aiming and ball alignments to each other. That is all VISUAL. THE EYES LEAD AND THE BODY FOLLOWS and so does the ball to ball alignment from training and experience. NOT FEEL.
 
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BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
I can agree with this last paragraph completely.

But that's NOT how "feel" is used by most or you. When someone says "I aim by feel" it's from the very start as if there are NO specific visual keys to lock onto for the eyes, head, body, feet, cue and matching up the alignment of CB to OB for specifically angled shots.

It's like it's so automatic that you immediately walk into the shot, set up, the balls are already perfectly aligned from past experiences, you pull the cue back and stroke,
with all balls going in successfully.

"Feel" comes in with the touch you have for speed and type of stroke needed to move the CB into place for that specific shot and the position for the next shot angle. It could also be how you're stroking the cue in a given game or session. Some days it's smooth and controlled...or it can be a little short, jerky or poking...how hard to hit the CB to get it perfectly set up for the correct angle on the next shot at the opposite side and end of the table...speed for a bank shot...THOSE are examples of FEEL.

Not aiming and ball alignments to each other. That is all VISUAL. THE EYES LEAD AND THE BODY FOLLOWS and so does the ball to ball alignment from training and experience. NOT FEEL.
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I agree with this, all of it.

There are always visual references that are used to trigger or extract a resulting action. The triggering is automatic. The resulting action is automatic. By automatic I mean it happens without consciously trying to make it happen. But the initial visual reference itself is gathered consciously, purposely, deliberately.

When first learning how to do something we have to learn what to look at, then we have to purposely make our body do the appropriate things to perform whatever action we are trying to learn or attach to what we are seeing. It's all 100% conscious effort, like clearing a path through the weeds from point A to point B. Some steps are smaller than others, sometimes we have to step over a rock or step sideways to avoid a hole. Eventually, after enough deliberate steps through the path, watching every step along the way, we start making it from A to B with very little purposeful attention given to each step. We create a program that runs automatically, based on realtime visual input. With pocketing pool balls, the cb-ob relationship as it relates to tge pocket involves conscious/deliberate effort. Everything that happens after that (knowing where to stand, how to stroke the shot, how to align the cue, etc...) is automatic, if you've done it enough to make it automatic .
 
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SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
I agree with this, all of it.

There are always visual references that are used to trigger or extract a resulting action. But the initial visual reference itself is gathered consciously, purposely, deliberately.
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OOOOOKAAAAAA! This is a big milestone above. But that is NOT what is normally stated.

Person A: What aiming system do you use? (AKA, what visuals do you use to connect the CB and OB together to a certain pocket on the table with about a {xyz cut angle from O-88 degrees)

Person B: I don't use an aiming system and find them to be worthless. I play entirely by FEEL.

What it really means is "I'm a hack player but it makes me sound like I'm an experienced all star just short of pro level and never miss a ball."

Why? Because what you wrote above IS a fact.

I've also seen, and so have you, that an aiming system (contact points or fraction) is used to "get them in the general vicinity of the correct shot angle" but then they rely on "feel" to really home in.

Bullshit! If they knew the system as it should be used there would be no need to jerk around second guessing what to do next with visual and physical manipulations.
The shot should be good to go because the system really does work if learned and used as stated.

Doesn't Poolology?
 
BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
OOOOOKAAAAAA! This is a big milestone above. But that is NOT what is normally stated.

Person A: What aiming system do you use? (AKA, what visuals do you use to connect the CB and OB together to a certain pocket on the table with about a {xyz cut angle from O-88 degrees)

Person B: I don't use an aiming system and find them to be worthless. I play entirely by FEEL.

What it really means is "I'm a hack player but it makes me sound like I'm an experienced all star just short of pro level and never miss a ball."

Why? Because what you wrote above IS a fact.

I've also seen, and so have you, that an aiming system (contact points or fraction) is used to "get them in the general vicinity of the correct shot angle" but then they rely on "feel" to really home in.

Bullshit! If they knew the system as it should be used there would be no need to jerk around second guessing what to do next with visual and physical manipulations.
The shot should be good to go because the system really does work if learned and used as stated.

Doesn't Poolology?
Click to expand...

Yes. But different people approach things differently, explain things differently. Not sure if you've noticed, but I use analogies quite often. Lol

Anyway, it's a lot easier to say "I just see the shot and shoot it.", than it is to say "I look at the balls as they relate to the pocket, and since I've done this countless times, and have repeated most shots successfully enough times, my brain just recognizes what needs to happen next, and I just do it."

So I don't get too caught up with the terminology of it. If somebody wants to call it feel, fine by me. I'm sure I've called it that also a time or two. I see feel as something that occurs automatically, like feeling happy, sad, frightened, confident, timid....whatever. It's a subconscious reaction.
 
SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
Yes. But different people approach things differently, explain things differently. Not sure if you've noticed, but I use analogies quite often. Lol

Huh? I never noticed.

Anyway, it's a lot easier to say "I just see the shot and shoot it.", than it is to say "I look at the balls as they relate to the pocket, and since I've done this countless times, and have repeated most shots successfully enough times, my brain just recognizes what needs to happen next, and I just do it."

Bullshit once again. It's just as easy to say "I use fractions because I've really learned how to see them and match the balls up. Besides, I even wrote a book about it." Or, I use contact points...or I use GB...or I use the arrow...or I use 90/90...or I use CTE.

So I don't get too caught up with the terminology of it. If somebody wants to call it feel, fine by me. I'm sure I've called it that also a time or two.

Actually far to often for someone who knows better and should know better.

I see feel as something that occurs automatically, like feeling happy, sad, frightened, confident, timid....whatever. It's a subconscious reaction.
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You friggin' had to do it again with a moronic example/analogy, didn't you. Those refer to EMOTIONS and INNER feelings which is appropriate.

NOT specific visual sighting and alignment techniques to link two pool balls together, unless it's two beginners hitting and hoping something goes in.
 
BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
You friggin' had to do it again with a moronic example/analogy, didn't you. Those refer to EMOTIONS and INNER feelings which is appropriate.

NOT specific visual sighting and alignment techniques to link two pool balls together, unless it's two beginners hitting and hoping something goes in.
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Lol. I don't know. Specific visuals, whether it's two pool balls on a pool table or two guys with baseball bats and ski masks heading into a convenience store, make us feel a certain a way inside, and this feeling triggers an action or a reaction. The action/reaction can be innate/natural, or it can be something you've programmed yourself to do everytime you see whatever it is you're seeing.

Player A: "Why did you shoot it like that?"

Player B: "Because I felt like it was my best option."

Player C: "Felt? There is no FEEL in pool. There is only SEE and DO. No feel."

Player C is wrong. To feel involves making a decision based on your experience, judgment, and knowledge. This feels right. This feels wrong. This feels risky or stupid. This feels smart. Very few things are done with 100% surety.

A certain amount of internal decision making takes place, and what follows is whatever you feel is the correct thing to do, whether you are new CTE user learning how to recognize when a shot needs a 30 perception instead of a 15, or an inside pivot instead of an outside pivot, or if you're a newby using the old 5-lines fractional aiming method and have to decide if the shot looks closer to a 3/4 hit than it does a halfball hit. You can't go with what you KNOW because you don't have enough experience to really know. So you go with what feels right. And the more you do it the more in tune you get with what feels right, based on what you're seeing. So I completely understand when someone says they aim by feel.
 
SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
Lol. I don't know. Specific visuals, whether it's two pool balls on a pool table or two guys with baseball bats and ski masks heading into a convenience store, make us feel a certain a way inside, and this feeling triggers an action or a reaction. The action/reaction can be innate/natural, or it can be something you've programmed yourself to do everytime you see whatever it is you're seeing.

This is getting nuttier and nuttier. Your analogies don't even come close to making sense.

Player A: "Why did you shoot it like that?"

Player B: "Because I felt like it was my best option."

Player C: "Felt? There is no FEEL in pool. There is only SEE and DO. No feel."

Player C is wrong. To feel involves making a decision based on your experience, judgment, and knowledge. This feels right. This feels wrong. This feels risky or stupid. This feels smart. Very few things are done with 100% surety.

Aiming and aligning pool balls are different.

A certain amount of internal decision making takes place, and what follows is whatever you feel THINK is the correct thing to do, whether you are new CTE user learning how to recognize when a shot needs a 30 perception instead of a 15, or an inside pivot instead of an outside pivot, or if you're a newby using the old 5-lines fractional aiming method and have to decide if the shot looks closer to a 3/4 hit than it does a halfball hit. You can't go with what you KNOW because you don't have enough experience to really know. So you go with what feels right. YOU THINK OR GUESS IS RIGHT And the more you do it the more in tune you get with what feels right, based on what you're seeing. FEEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. ONLY SUCCESFUL RESULTS FROM DOING IT A CERTAIN WAY OVER AND OVER. ONCE IT'S INGRAINED YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL SHIT. YOU DO IT VISUALLY BY ROTE THE SAME WAY OVER AND OVER. So I completely understand when someone says they aim by feel.
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What happened to this statement? This was YOURS:

There are always visual references that are used to trigger or extract a resulting action. But the initial visual reference itself is gathered consciously, purposely, deliberately.

Do you know what the meaning is of what you said...THERE IS NO FEEL INVOLVED AT THE POINT OF OBTAINING VISUAL REFERENCES.

THE VISUAL REFERENCES ARE GATHERED CONSCIOIUSLY, PURPOSELY, AND DELIBERATELY.

You're starting one of your famous tap dances and moon walking again.

The insanity exercise is OVER!
 
BC21

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SpiderWebComm said:
What happened to this statement? This was YOURS:

There are always visual references that are used to trigger or extract a resulting action. But the initial visual reference itself is gathered consciously, purposely, deliberately.

Do you know what the meaning is of what you said...THERE IS NO FEEL INVOLVED AT THE POINT OF OBTAINING VISUAL REFERENCES.

THE VISUAL REFERENCES ARE GATHERED CONSCIOIUSLY, PURPOSELY, AND DELIBERATELY.

You're starting one of your famous tap dances and moon walking again.

The insanity exercise is OVER! [
Click to expand...


I'm sorry that your comprehension skills are way below normal. It must difficult for you at times.

You are correct, what I said, in bold, involves absolutely zero "feel". I never said it did. It's what happens at a subconscious level, where what you see gets compared or referenced to memory, to what you know. That's where FEEL comes in. If what you see matches what you know then you FEEL 100% ready to act or react. If it doesn't match then you don't FEEL 100% ready to act or react.

It really can't be described any simpler than that. Please FEEL welcome to find amother thread to pollute. How about starting a CTE thread where you can explain in detail how you perform an exact halftip pivot with perfect precision everytime without relying on subjective experience.
 
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B

bbb

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not looking to derail your (conversation??? ) brian and spidey
but if you asked me how do I aim
I would say this
most of the time I just see if I hit the object ball "there" it goes in the pocket
my visual is the line from the pocket to the cue ball
how I hit "there" changes
sometimes ( I know you hate analogies) I ask myself
"how thick a slice does mrs Giordano want?"
ie I have learned how to make the edge of the cue ball hit a spot
and cut that slice....:eek:
either overlap or
sometimes its contact point to contact point..
sometimes the angle lands on a pure fraction line which I "see" and aim at the fraction
(I use targets at the base of the ball )
sometimes its the overlap
I realize its not cte and pivot
knowing when to use an outside or inside pivot
but it works for me
my errors are more stroke related then aiming/alignment
jmho
your thoughts?
 
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BC21

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bbb said:
not looking to derail your (conversation??? ) brian and spidey
but if you asked me how do I aim
I would say this
most of the time I just see if I hit the cue ball "there" it goes in the pocket
my visual is the line from the pocket to the cue ball
how I hit "there" changes
sometimes ( I know you hate analogies) I ask myself
"how thick a slice does mrs Giordano want?"
ie I have learned how to make the edge of the cue ball hit a spot
and cut that slice....:eek:
either overlap or
sometimes its contact point to contact point..
sometimes the angle lands on a pure fraction line which I "see" and aim at the fraction
(I use targets at the base of the ball )
sometimes its the overlap
I realize its not cte and pivot
knowing when to use an outside or inside pivot
but it works for me
my errors are more stroke related then aiming/alignment
jmho
your thoughts?
Click to expand...


Sounds like a good mix of techniques. And I believe most players miss more shots because of stroke error rather than aiming error.
 
SpiderWebComm

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BC21 said:
I'm sorry that your comprehension skills are way below normal. It must difficult for you at times.

You are correct, what I said, in bold, involves absolutely zero "feel". I never said it did. It's what happens at a subconscious level, where what you see gets compared or referenced to memory, to what you know. That's where FEEL comes in. If what you see matches what you know then you FEEL 100% ready to act or react. If it doesn't match then you don't FEEL 100% ready to act or react.

It really can't be described any simpler than that. Please FEEL welcome to find amother thread to pollute. How about starting a CTE thread where you can explain in detail how you perform an exact halftip pivot with perfect precision everytime without relying on subjective experience.
Click to expand...

This doesn't even sound like a Brian Crist post. More like a Dan White post sent over by email.

If you want to talk about polluting, there's no further place to look when it's overloaded with anything said or brought up by the anti-CTE gang as you just posted here when you said you wouldn't. Not to speak of polluting with analogies being so far fetched and off base it's laughable.

It's an aiming forum. I have no problem hearing about the alignments of fractions and how specific ones when chosen correctly can make various shots.

You insist on bringing up "FEEL" and how it's the true way all shots are made. It can't be defined, it can't be described, it can't be categorized, it can't be transferred from one player to another, we all have it but some far better than others which separates the real men from the boys. And you aren't in the "boys" category.

Seeing balls and aiming is real. Not some pseudo science half baked mumbo jumbo.

Lay it on me. Time for another Twilight Zone analogy. Or you could choose not to post back at all. That would be a first since having the "last word" is always the goal.
 
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