Interesting shot from AZB's Tin Man
- Thread starter mikepage
- Start date
Technically, ball-first isn't required for inside english shots like this. What is required is that the ball hit occurs before the CB compresses the cushion very much. If the CB contacts the cushion first just in front of the ball and hits the ball before the cushion compresses the cushion very much, the inside (running) spin will still "take" after ball contact. If you look at the slow-motion footage of the first shot in my video, you will see the cushion-first contact (barely), with the inside still having a large effect.
But to be honest, "ball-first" (instead of "ball-before-too-much-cushion") is still probably the best way to describe shots like this. People will know what you mean, and they won't be confused.
Regards,
Dave
You're probably thinking of this, which has a similar setup:
NV B.91 - Frozen-throw-down-rail proposition shot, from VEPS V
The shot in the current video does not rely on throw whatsoever.
Bingo!
Regards,
Dave
Here's my follow-up video covering all good safety options:
NV J.18 - What Would You Do Here? - Safety Follow-Up
There were more than I originally thought.
Which option(s) do you guys think are the best in general and for you specifically?
Do you think I missed any important or useful safeties?
Enjoy,
Dave
Shot 1 is the best.
One important detail - in general when I play this safe I don't play the cue ball to the rail. With a 20-30 degree angle or so it's possible to shoot straight at the 8 softly, move the 11 over six inches, and still have the cue ball frozen to the 8. The 8 double kisses the cue ball a little but at that soft speed it will remain stuck on top of the 8 every time with zero cue ball movement. This is an absolute game winner.
Now, I realize that if both balls are frozen then you have to play the cue ball to the rail. Still, if you shoot your shot 1 odds are the 11 will end up 'not frozen'. And, if they try tying up the 8 ball again, it's almost certain that one of the two will be off the rail. From there, with ball in hand, it will be easy to shoot the shot I'm describing.
My guess is that I can win with shot 1 immediately much of the time, but even if they tie up the balls they won't be able to get both frozen again and my next 'shot 1' will be dead jail.
I like some of your other suggestions, but they are all a far cry from the first.
One important detail - in general when I play this safe I don't play the cue ball to the rail. With a 20-30 degree angle or so it's possible to shoot straight at the 8 softly, move the 11 over six inches, and still have the cue ball frozen to the 8. The 8 double kisses the cue ball a little but at that soft speed it will remain stuck on top of the 8 every time with zero cue ball movement. This is an absolute game winner.
Now, I realize that if both balls are frozen then you have to play the cue ball to the rail. Still, if you shoot your shot 1 odds are the 11 will end up 'not frozen'. And, if they try tying up the 8 ball again, it's almost certain that one of the two will be off the rail. From there, with ball in hand, it will be easy to shoot the shot I'm describing.
My guess is that I can win with shot 1 immediately much of the time, but even if they tie up the balls they won't be able to get both frozen again and my next 'shot 1' will be dead jail.
I like some of your other suggestions, but they are all a far cry from the first.
Excellent analysis and suggestions. I think I now need to film a "Final Chapter" follow-up video showing just all of the best things that can happen with the best safety play.
Thanks again for sharing the original shot and you insight.
Best regards,
Dave
MickeyMantle
Mickey Mantle #7
This is shot is on YourTube, if I remember right it was shot with low right. Check it out, I think it is titled What Would You Do....there is also a follow up with some options of possible safety shots
Do you mean these:
What Would You Do Here, With Both Balls Frozen to the Rail?
What Would You Do Here? - Safety Follow-Up
I was inspired to create those based on the shot posted by Tin Man and Mike Page.
Regards,
Dave
MickeyMantle
Mickey Mantle #7
Saw this on a Dr Dave Billiards / YouTube, and it was a shot the shooter credited the Tin Man...you hit the rail first with outside spin. A follow up tape on this set up, shows you possible safety shots....check it out, it is titled "What Would You Do Here" (after I posted this noticed that Dr Dave posted it above my post, sorry)
I've tried the shot many times...8 ball doesn't budge. Have you tried/done it?
I have made the shot without anything frozen. The angles have to be right.
If they are frozen, the thing for you to try to vary is whether you hit the rail before or after the 8. Change your aim back and forth. Experiment.
I've tried it on three different tables (Olhaussen, Gold Crown, Valley bar box) and I got the 8-ball to go on all three. Again, the margin for error is tiny. You must hit the 8 and cushion at very close to the same time, hitting the cushion just a hair in front of the 8 so the inside running spin can take while the CB is compressing the cushion.
There ain't no trickery going on, you just need to get lucky with the hit. Accurate aiming also helps.
Good luck,
Dave
Hey guys! Glad some of you enjoyed this one. There’s almost zero practical application, but I love tinkering around on the table.
First of all, the shot requires the right equipment. The rails and balls have to be worn/gritty to some extent. I’ve played this shot on my home table which has slick cloth and it wouldn’t go from that distance. I’d have to have the two balls an inch from the corner. The problem is that you don’t get enough grab from the cue ball to really move the 8, it just slides and rubs the side of the ball slightly. So on most tables I have to set them up close to the pocket and strike the ball very accurately.
But on the equipment last night the cue ball really grabbed and was putting much more pace on the 8 ball than I can normally generate. Mike suggested I back it up from the corner and sure enough we got it close to the middle diamond. In fact on the attempt we recorded the 8 ball was moving fast enough and with enough accuracy we probably could’ve had it another diamond from the corner. We only did two takes, this was just something we found fun and wanted to share.
Maybe I should start with a ball hanging in the pocket, then the combo would make the hanger, the 8 would make the middle ball, and the cue ball could go four rails with inside to make the 8 ball? Hmmm. Something to try today...
PS- to aim just set up like you want to make it rail first with inside, then adjust just slightly so you’ll tickle the edge of the ball going in. Just enough to get the second ball moving.
Thanks for posting this. Hope to see more of your wizardry in the future.
Kevin
Yeah, you changed what balls the players were hitting on one sequence.
I would think you hit the 8 first and it sits still then the CB comes off the rail and cuts it in. Can't wait to try this one!
Dave was it that you fouled trying to hit 8 ball when you shot the CB off side rail... as it looks like you hit the rail then 8 & then NO rail afterwards... lol
Bingo. I got confused shooting both as myself and as my "opponent." Quite embarrassing.
Good job catching it,
Dave