Can You Lose Your Amateur Status - Brian Parks

chevybob20

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After reading a few comments in this thread, I believe that some people do not realize that the APA runs the US Ams. Since they run the tourney, they make the rules. Those rules are publicly posted here. https://poolplayers.com/us-amateur-championship/rules/

Here are the pertinent parts;

All players are encouraged to seek sponsorship (businesses, Host Locations, clubs, etc.) to help pay costs associated with participating in the U.S. Amateur Championship.


Not only is sponsorship allowed it is encouraged. I agree with this rule. It helps the less financially fortunate but talented players find a way to afford to attend a 3 day tourney in Tampa. I want the best to attend not the richest.


Professional players are not allowed to participate in the U.S. Amateur Championship. APA will consult with several professional tours concerning the status of any player. In addition, players who possess professional characteristics will not be allowed to participate. Professional characteristics include, but are not limited to: making the majority of one’s income giving exhibitions, giving lessons or playing pool. Please contact the APA if you think there is any possibility that you possess professional characteristics.
APA has a nationwide network of representatives and maintains a list of professional players throughout the country. APA intends to check the amateur status according to the above guidelines on every entrant into the U.S. Amateur Championship. Those entrants found to be in violation will be consulted and given an opportunity to appeal; however, APA has the final authority to make the judgment. Entry fees for those entrants found to be in violation will not be refunded.


Here's the APA's definition of Amateur. If you make your living playing pool, you need not apply. Brian does not. He's a working man that pays the bills. That fact makes his accomplishment of 5 titles incredible in my book. He achieved those skills while working a normal job. Sacrifice and hard work.

Personally, I like the APA's separation of Amateur from Pro. Working a job limits practice time. It's practice time that makes a difference. Hard work makes a winner. Actually, it's hard work that separates out the successful for the failures 99% of the time in all aspects of life.

"Sine Labore Nihil".


APA reserves the right to rule on amateur status (professional or amateur) at any time before, during, or after the event.

APA reserves the right to deny participation.

APA reserves the right to disqualify anyone entering or participating under fraudulent circumstances.


I play in this every year that I can attend. It is the best tourney that I choose to participate. There's no money on the line, just a title and the love of the game. I want to play the best, so I welcome Brian's participation. That trophy would grow meaningless if we ban players just because they won. If I wanted to play a cream puff, I would go back to league play.

Put your money up and sign up before June. This is a great time. Please come on out. The blind draw mini brackets makes winning a qualifier a possibility for someone like me. In fact, I did win a qualifier 5 years ago. I've also finished second three times. I was/am just an average APA 7 in 8 ball when I played.
 

nicksaint26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After reading a few comments in this thread, I believe that some people do not realize that the APA runs the US Ams. Since they run the tourney, they make the rules. Those rules are publicly posted here. https://poolplayers.com/us-amateur-championship/rules/

Here are the pertinent parts;

All players are encouraged to seek sponsorship (businesses, Host Locations, clubs, etc.) to help pay costs associated with participating in the U.S. Amateur Championship.


Not only is sponsorship allowed it is encouraged. I agree with this rule. It helps the less financially fortunate but talented players find a way to afford to attend a 3 day tourney in Tampa. I want the best to attend not the richest.


Professional players are not allowed to participate in the U.S. Amateur Championship. APA will consult with several professional tours concerning the status of any player. In addition, players who possess professional characteristics will not be allowed to participate. Professional characteristics include, but are not limited to: making the majority of one’s income giving exhibitions, giving lessons or playing pool. Please contact the APA if you think there is any possibility that you possess professional characteristics.
APA has a nationwide network of representatives and maintains a list of professional players throughout the country. APA intends to check the amateur status according to the above guidelines on every entrant into the U.S. Amateur Championship. Those entrants found to be in violation will be consulted and given an opportunity to appeal; however, APA has the final authority to make the judgment. Entry fees for those entrants found to be in violation will not be refunded.


Here's the APA's definition of Amateur. If you make your living playing pool, you need not apply. Brian does not. He's a working man that pays the bills. That fact makes his accomplishment of 5 titles incredible in my book. He achieved those skills while working a normal job. Sacrifice and hard work.

Personally, I like the APA's separation of Amateur from Pro. Working a job limits practice time. It's practice time that makes a difference. Hard work makes a winner. Actually, it's hard work that separates out the successful for the failures 99% of the time in all aspects of life.

"Sine Labore Nihil".


APA reserves the right to rule on amateur status (professional or amateur) at any time before, during, or after the event.

APA reserves the right to deny participation.

APA reserves the right to disqualify anyone entering or participating under fraudulent circumstances.


I play in this every year that I can attend. It is the best tourney that I choose to participate. There's no money on the line, just a title and the love of the game. I want to play the best, so I welcome Brian's participation. That trophy would grow meaningless if we ban players just because they won. If I wanted to play a cream puff, I would go back to league play.

Put your money up and sign up before June. This is a great time. Please come on out. The blind draw mini brackets makes winning a qualifier a possibility for someone like me. In fact, I did win a qualifier 5 years ago. I've also finished second three times. I was/am just an average APA 7 in 8 ball when I played.

Wouldn't winning a pro tournament be considered showing professional characteristics?
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldn't winning a pro tournament be considered showing professional characteristics?

If it happened on a regular basis it obviously would. I recall reading on here a lil while back about a 16-17 year old kid beating a pro or 2 in a tournament up in new England somewhere. Should that kid be a pro?
 

nicksaint26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If it happened on a regular basis it obviously would. I recall reading on here a lil while back about a 16-17 year old kid beating a pro or 2 in a tournament up in new England somewhere. Should that kid be a pro?

Your trying to compare apples to oranges, whatever. You act like Brian got lucky one tournament and beat a few pro's like he doesn't always play at that level. He is a 721 Fargo! You act like it's the only time Brian has shot well which is so off. You don't see Joshua Filler in the apa do you?
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your trying to compare apples to oranges, whatever. You act like Brian got lucky one tournament and beat a few pro's like he doesn't always play at that level. He is a 721 Fargo! You act like it's the only time Brian has shot well which is so off. You don't see Joshua Filler in the apa do you?

Does Joshua filler have a full time job ?

Bad anology man.

Joshua filler travels the world playing in major tournaments.

Brian holds a full time job and plays for the fun of it. He won what was basically a local tournament that had a few pros in it.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges between those 2.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
The MLB mat kes a great ball player a pro.
The NFL makes a great ball player a pro.
The NHL makes a great hockey player a pro.
The PBA makes a great bowler a pro.
The MLS makes a great soccer player a pro.
The PGA makes a great golfer a pro.
What makes a billiard player a pro?
No governing body for the sport, no professional status. PERIOD.

This is actually very easily fixed.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your trying to compare apples to oranges, whatever. You act like Brian got lucky one tournament and beat a few pro's like he doesn't always play at that level. He is a 721 Fargo! You act like it's the only time Brian has shot well which is so off. You don't see Joshua Filler in the apa do you?

Brian parks 721 with a robustness of 936 which puts him on the bottom of the barrel with just about any pro you can name.

Joshua filler. 798 with a robustness of 2,037 which puts in the at least the top 20 in the world. Bad anology .
 

nicksaint26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Brian parks 721 with a robustness of 936 which puts him on the bottom of the barrel with just about any pro you can name.

Joshua filler. 798 with a robustness of 2,037 which puts in the at least the top 20 in the world. Bad anology .

I was over exaggerating like yourself and your silly examples. I'm done debating this we obviously disagree on what professional like characteristics are. You know like winning a pro tournament lol. He may have only beat 4 pro's in that tourny but there were plenty more there. In 2015 he beat Corey Deuel in the Swanson Memorial must of been another lucky day for Brian, right?
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was over exaggerating like yourself and your silly examples. I'm done debating this we obviously disagree on what professional like characteristics are. You know like winning a pro tournament lol. He may have only beat 4 pro's in that tourny but there were plenty more there. In 2015 he beat Corey Deuel in the Swanson Memorial must of been another lucky day for Brian, right?

It seems to me you are establishing your opinion solely on Brian's level of play. I do agree he plays darn near pro level . I am only saying that because bcapl league defines a pro as a 721. However we are talking about apa and how they define a pro since ita their tournament.
Since people like anologies .

Lets say you are wanting a promotion you have to meet 5 criteria and only meet one. Now you may happen to be better than every one else at that one criteria but since you did not meet the other 4 you stay where you are at.

According to apa guidelines there are several criteria they take into consideration for determining your status. Brian probably meets the criteria of level of play. That is the only thing you and every one else is basing your opinion on. He does not meet all the other criteria apa takes into consideration therefore they consider him an amateur.

I am all for calling a truce. You have your opinion and I have mine...never the twain shall meet huh ?

Despite the silly examples it was a respectful debate.
 

nicksaint26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems to me you are establishing your opinion solely on Brian's level of play. I do agree he plays darn near pro level . I am only saying that because bcapl league defines a pro as a 721. However we are talking about apa and how they define a pro since ita their tournament.
Since people like anologies .

Lets say you are wanting a promotion you have to meet 5 criteria and only meet one. Now you may happen to be better than every one else at that one criteria but since you did not meet the other 4 you stay where you are at.

According to apa guidelines there are several criteria they take into consideration for determining your status. Brian probably meets the criteria of level of play. That is the only thing you and every one else is basing your opinion on. He does not meet all the other criteria apa takes into consideration therefore they consider him an amateur.

I am all for calling a truce. You have your opinion and I have mine...never the twain shall meet huh ?

Despite the silly examples it was a respectful debate.

I respect your opinion lorider
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
I was over exaggerating like yourself and your silly examples. I'm done debating this we obviously disagree on what professional like characteristics are. You know like winning a pro tournament lol. He may have only beat 4 pro's in that tourny but there were plenty more there. In 2015 he beat Corey Deuel in the Swanson Memorial must of been another lucky day for Brian, right?
Lucky day for Brian? I don't think so. If you've never seen him he's pretty good and
fully capable of running out a table at any time. You just never know, a good safe, some bad
position, a roll or two even you or I have a chance to beat a pro, but even if it happens several
times it don't make us pros.

I think it's difficult to say what a pro or pro characteristics in this country might be. Obviously
you and lo don't agree. That there is no governing organization kind of leaves that open to
interpretation, and that's probably on an event by event basis.

As far as the APA goes they reserve the right to decide what a professional is and is not.
That definition is a huge one.

I think until someone comes up with a monthly tour and the domestic billiard industry is
once again profitable for the players we likely won't see a governing board that can take
part in a monthly event tour and secure sponsorship. It takes money, there just isn't any.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldn't winning a pro tournament be considered showing professional characteristics?

No, that just means you're really freakin' good
How good you are has no bearing on professional status

Like I have said, if winning and accepting a predetermined amount of money in pool tournaments were an established guideline, then that could be a different situation entirely
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
By moving on, I mean playing against other players outside of league. I don’t know where you play, but if I quit playing league, I could play people anytime I want, in multiple locations. The purpose of a league is to compete against other skill levels using a handicapped system to level the field. Many players, not just Brian, are too far beyond the field to allow this. At that point they should go pro, play for money, teach or just play for fun like most pool players. Not that complicated.


And some folks could not. They show up on league night, and they play, pretty simple.

I spoke before about a guy that played baseball with me that was very good, pro level, but he fugged up his college scholarship. But he basically turned the game into batting practice for himself in the amateur leagues.. He was a monster hitter, and very difficult to get the guy out. Oh, he'd fly out occasionally, or hit a ground ball to someone, but rarely struck out against the likes of "us".

And if folks really believe that all talent is "found" or "signed", just not true. Scouts are not looking at amateur leagues, and if you don't go to a try out or play college baseball, or at least top level Travel Baseball (16-18 year olds), nobody is really looking at you.

The conversation with my coach to me was how the heck do we get him to switch teams ;) Everyone was a free agent, that means you can leave your team at the end of the year and play with any team you want, and they agree to take you. Usually there are tryouts, but not for known folks. They just make a call, or usually are called by a coach after the year is over.

Not one time, did anyone ever say he needs to leave the league because he was too good. NOT ONE TIME. We we're playing against the best and that was OK. He was not a pro for various reasons, but we were not about to declare him a pro so we could avoid him.
 

MJB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This gets hashed out every year that Brian is in the finals. Mostly with smartass comments during the live stream.

It would be simple to answer this if we had one thing...an established pro tour. That way, you could establish rules like “if you play in pro events, you can no longer be considered an amateur” (bowling does this), or “if you have amateur status, you can’t earn money playing in pro events” (golf does this). But, we don’t have a pro tour. We have “open events” and “Mosconi Cup points events” and “no pros allowed events.”

So, in the absence of easily defining a pro-level player, everyone makes up their own criteria. The APA’s thing about a pro being someone who earns a living playing pool is a little simplistic.

Brian won the 2017 Swanee. It was alternate break 9-ball with a magic rack. He played pretty much flawlessly in the semis (Busty) and finals (Dominguez).
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Mabye it's time to add him to Mosconi Cup ? he seems unflappable in big games, what exactly do we have to lose ?
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And some folks could not. They show up on league night, and they play, pretty simple.

I spoke before about a guy that played baseball with me that was very good, pro level, but he fugged up his college scholarship. But he basically turned the game into batting practice for himself in the amateur leagues.. He was a monster hitter, and very difficult to get the guy out. Oh, he'd fly out occasionally, or hit a ground ball to someone, but rarely struck out against the likes of "us".

And if folks really believe that all talent is "found" or "signed", just not true. Scouts are not looking at amateur leagues, and if you don't go to a try out or play college baseball, or at least top level Travel Baseball (16-18 year olds), nobody is really looking at you.

The conversation with my coach to me was how the heck do we get him to switch teams ;) Everyone was a free agent, that means you can leave your team at the end of the year and play with any team you want, and they agree to take you. Usually there are tryouts, but not for known folks. They just make a call, or usually are called by a coach after the year is over.

Not one time, did anyone ever say he needs to leave the league because he was too good. NOT ONE TIME. We we're playing against the best and that was OK. He was not a pro for various reasons, but we were not about to declare him a pro so we could avoid him.

years ago when I played softball we had several guys in our league that had played at the pro level. No one ever complained . Reading this thread gives credence to the reputation of pool players whining about everything.
 

owll

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
here are some fargo ratings for some pro's from florida that are barred from all amatuer events.

tony crosby 705
dave grossman 685
stoney stone 716
tommy kennedy 731
justin hall 750
donny mills 751

I like Brian, he seems like a real nice guy, but he definitely plays at a professional level.

(From some of the previous posts its apparent that the APA, and some of the posters, are having trouble figuring out how many professional level players there are that are smart enough to make a living from something other than pool)
 
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JumpinJoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I doubt you should/could lose your "Amateur" status for winning a tourney multiple times that pays absolutely ZERO. You have to actually go in the hole(negative) EVERYTIME you attend the U.S. Amateur as far as expense/tourney is concerned. I really have no idea why ANYONE would play this thing, except for a weekend vacation to the Florida beaches. From a financial point of view it makes absolutely ZERO sense
 
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