Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page bar table 8 ball, dealing with a bad break with clusters
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
bar table 8 ball, dealing with a bad break with clusters
Old
  (#1)
judochoke
AzB Silver Member
judochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 149
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2018
   
bar table 8 ball, dealing with a bad break with clusters - 07-02-2019, 03:58 PM

seems like my opponent, or sometimes myself, will break badly, with all kinds of clusters on the bottom of the table. I hate these games, as it turns into a cluster @@@@

now I know that I want to have all of my balls set up so I can run out if possible, but what if I only have three makable balls on the table, and the other 4 balls are clustered up big time????

do I go ahead and make the three balls, and then try to break out one cluster out of three clusters on the table? or do I forget about the three makable balls, and try to uncluster the clustered balls?

so would I try with my first shot to uncluster two clusters with one shot? but if my opponent is really good, I may have just sold the game if all 7 of his balls are open.

im getting good at small maneuvering with the cue ball playing 8 ball, but with lots of clusters, I dont get much of a chance to run out.

I see the pros running out almost every time, but they are getting a break that totally spreads out the balls. most bar players cannot break like that. thanks for any info. judo
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
skip100
AzB Silver Member
skip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond reputeskip100 has a reputation beyond repute
 
skip100's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,922
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Golden State
   
07-02-2019, 04:03 PM

Check out this match for some ideas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBQiWiTEJJo

(Bergman is super slow so you can use the right arrow button to speed things up)

The short answer is that you should try to break up clusters with the cue ball (or some other caroming ball) while simultaneously making open shots. When that option is not available, you want to play a safety or take some other course of action that maximizes your chance of getting back to the table with a decent shot.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,247
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
07-02-2019, 04:04 PM

No, pocketing the loose balls and then starting to work on the clusters is usually bad form, although there are exceptions to this rule.

I'll paraphrase Danny DiLiberto here to offer the tactical summation: Danny says "In a rack of eight ball, each one of your balls is like a soldier on a battlefield, so don't take your soldiers off the battlefield unless you can see victory ahead or, at least, move clearly in the direction of victory."

Using the loose balls for both defense and cluster development is better form in eight ball in these sorts of racks.

Last edited by sjm; 07-02-2019 at 04:55 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
us820
AzB Silver Member
us820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond reputeus820 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 616
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2015
   
07-02-2019, 04:30 PM

Dont pocket easy balls.In a cluster rack. Block pockets the other guy needs,tie up a ball of his, and or set up break out balls for your cluster.And every time I see a big cluster of balls I just see safety opportunities.Patience pays off in these racks.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
strmanglr scott
AzB Silver Member
strmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,421
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
   
07-02-2019, 04:41 PM

Some good advice on those loose balls.

First thing to do is asses the clusters. How are you gonna break them out? Can you break them all out and run it? Are your opponents balls mixed in? Can your opponent w ball in hand break and run? If you can't break them all and run it, where can you find safety? Maybe break a single cluster and move on to another or get position for safe.

My league captain, who is one the areas top players, would always tell me to leave them for my opponent to deal with. Too many variables and unknowns when breaking stuff out.

In 8 ball, take care of your problems early or go find a place to hide the CB.

That's generally how I play it. Every break is different though.


The rail is your best friend.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
judochoke
AzB Silver Member
judochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond reputejudochoke has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 149
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2018
   
07-02-2019, 04:48 PM

yes, i have heard of the soldier analogy, makes sense. thanks for the advice
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
JazzyJeff87
AzB Plutonium Member

JazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond reputeJazzyJeff87 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,174
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: MD
   
07-02-2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by us820 View Post
Dont pocket easy balls.In a cluster rack. Block pockets the other guy needs,tie up a ball of his, and or set up break out balls for your cluster.And every time I see a big cluster of balls I just see safety opportunities.Patience pays off in these racks.
Some good points. I usually lean more towards aggressive play but when the table is really bad I’ll try making moves. The idea of playing safe while also leaving one of your open balls near the cluster to use as a break ball is really strong.

Also something I’ve tried is to “enjoy” those ugly terrible racks. It’s hard to do because I like running balls but when you get into it and play as if you’re ready to bunt the balls around all day the other guy will sometimes start to take the reckless shots and leave you an out.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
9 Ball Fan
Darth Maximus
9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute9 Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute
 
9 Ball Fan's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 391
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2019
   
07-02-2019, 06:38 PM

Always trying to make a ball has cost me many games of pool.


Favorite Cues:
Meucci Pro Series
1990s Viking
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
strmanglr scott
AzB Silver Member
strmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond reputestrmanglr scott has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,421
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
   
07-02-2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9 Ball Fan View Post
Always trying to make a ball has cost me many games of pool.
Lol, if I had $ every time I watched a player do that.

People run and paint themselves into a corner. They're left w just the cluster. No break out ball. What R U doing? So many times.

I see it, I find a place in time(balls down, table position) where I can put one of my spare soldiers in place to use it as a break out ball when I don't have one and safe my opponent.


The rail is your best friend.
  
Reply With Quote
Clusters
Old
  (#10)
mfinkelstein3
AzB Silver Member
mfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond reputemfinkelstein3 has a reputation beyond repute
 
mfinkelstein3's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 250
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queens, New York
   
Clusters - 07-02-2019, 07:41 PM

I think the first thing to do is see where the 8 ball is, and the look at the c,usters from each pocket looking for dead balls, caroms, throw shots and combinations. It is amazing to me how many players never look at the clusters/stack looking for shots (most of them!). Then it is a matter of using the loose balls to get to your dead ball leaving an insurance shot.

Spend a week making clusters, finding a ball you think is dead, take a pucture if it, then play the shot to see what happens. Keep at it for a week and you will have learned a whole lot of what to look for in clusters!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
sixpack
AzB Silver Member

sixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond reputesixpack has a reputation beyond repute
 
sixpack's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,838
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: CA
   
07-02-2019, 08:16 PM

Honestly the best winning strategy is to just miss shots until your opponent makes enough mistakes that you can win.

The bonus is that they will still think they can beat you and want to play another game.

Truth is, in most leagues and local tournaments a lot of players can run out if you make 5-7 balls and leave them a shot. Almost none of them can run out their 7 balls + 8 ball if your balls are in the way.

Play the percentages and let them make the mistakes.

When you get to higher level play that won't work. So keep practicing running out and in matches, stretch the limit and try to run out when you think you *might* be able to. You'll win fewer matches in the short term but if your strategy gets you to the level where you'll be facing runout players you'll be toast without doing that.


Splitting time between Chicago and San Francisco.

"If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it." - Mark Twain
__________________
Email:
Playing Cues: Ernie Martinez, Schon
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
WGDave
AzB Silver Member
WGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond reputeWGDave has a reputation beyond repute
 
WGDave's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 6,096
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Jose, CA
   
07-02-2019, 08:42 PM

As an aside to the strategy of dealing with clusters.

If this is an actual bar setting where the balls are usually filthy, you can decrease the likelihood of bad breaks by cleaning the balls.

Yes, I have had my share of strange looks pulling out ball cleaner and a towel, but hey, it sure beats cluster strategy games that tend to even the odds.

Just my 2 cents.




In order to continue advancing their illogical arguments modern liberals have to pretend not to know things…
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
sneakynito
AzB Silver Member
sneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond reputesneakynito has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 160
vCash: 500
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Houston
   
07-03-2019, 08:28 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgZh7jXwi3U

Corey Deuel's barbox matches are excellent for learning how to deal with clusters.
He doesn't explode the balls with his breaks and usually does a second ball break which almost always ends up with a few clusters. And he is a master of handling them.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
Chili Palmer
Banned
Chili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond reputeChili Palmer has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,159
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2018
   
07-03-2019, 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
No, pocketing the loose balls and then starting to work on the clusters is usually bad form, although there are exceptions to this rule.

I'll paraphrase Danny DiLiberto here to offer the tactical summation: Danny says "In a rack of eight ball, each one of your balls is like a soldier on a battlefield, so don't take your soldiers off the battlefield unless you can see victory ahead or, at least, move clearly in the direction of victory."

Using the loose balls for both defense and cluster development is better form in eight ball in these sorts of racks.
This, if needed I will play safe after safe while methodically pecking away at the balls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by strmanglr scott View Post
Some good advice on those loose balls.

First thing to do is asses the clusters. How are you gonna break them out? Can you break them all out and run it? Are your opponents balls mixed in? Can your opponent w ball in hand break and run? If you can't break them all and run it, where can you find safety? Maybe break a single cluster and move on to another or get position for safe.

My league captain, who is one the areas top players, would always tell me to leave them for my opponent to deal with. Too many variables and unknowns when breaking stuff out.

In 8 ball, take care of your problems early or go find a place to hide the CB.

That's generally how I play it. Every break is different though.


What is "asses the clusters"? Some sort of weird sex game you like?
  
Reply With Quote
Learn to love clusters
Old
  (#15)
ShootingArts
Smorg is giving the 7!
ShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond repute
 
ShootingArts's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 12,018
vCash: 2900
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South of the Border
   
Learn to love clusters - 07-03-2019, 11:36 AM

You have plenty of good advice and notice that it is all basically the same. Normally the plan is to break up clusters early but that isn't how I always do it. I have a plan to break up clusters before I start, I will break them up when the time is right. I played a single game of bar box eightball for an crazy amount of money. We lagged for the break and I broke safe with plenty of clusters.

Either force your opponent to break clusters or only break them when you want to. Don't see them as a threat on the table but as an ally.

While it is usually good advice to let your opponent handle major problems be careful to study the table from your opponent's viewpoint before giving them the table. Sometimes a nasty cluster for you has an easy solution for the other player.

With a little luck the other player is sitting there thinking, "I hate clusters!" By seeing them as something that adds another dimension to the game that you can take advantage of they become a positive for you. That is win/win for you!

Hu
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.