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Hard or Soft "HIT"
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calboy8686
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Hard or Soft "HIT" - 12-10-2009, 12:58 AM

What factors or factor determine if a given cue has a "hard" or stiff hit versus a cue with a "soft" or more absorbent hit when you strike the cue ball?
  
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12-10-2009, 01:05 AM

taper tip and materials used
  
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12-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Can someone elaborate on that please...... it's a little vague for me. How do each of those factors work with the other, and all three together?
  
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12-10-2009, 11:37 AM

Density of materials is where you'll notice the biggest difference. Closely related to density is the tone of the wood, or how it vibrates.

- Shaft density. More GPI (grain per inch) means stiffer hit and better/tighter tone (generally).

- Shaft taper/diameter. The more mass of the shaft will have an effect, but it will also depend on the GPI and material type.

- Tip density. It is afterall the part that touches the ball. Think of Elkmaster to G10 break tip, then everything else in between.

- Ferrule material. Chapters can be written on this. Suffice to say, there is a wide range of materials for this, going from absorbant to stiff. This will make a big difference to your "feel". It's interesting to compare ferrule stock when it's in 3-4 foot long dowells, bouncing them on the concrete floor.

Personally, the tip and ferrule are probably most key to how a particule cue will feel, followed closely by shaft density/tone, then taper shape/diameter.

Some think that joint material and joint construction plays a big part to the feel of a cue, but I personally think that is secondary to the above criteria. Good shaft wood will make or break a cue, IMHO. If you can't get a cue to feel right for you by adjusting/changing any of the shaft components then you have more discerning feel than I (which may not be saying much).

Of course, if inferior materials or poor construction techiques are used for the butt then you'll notice it may be harder to tune your cue with shaft components alone.

Of course it's all subjective, but this is just my opinion. You'll likey get as many opinions on this as there are posters to this thread.

Regards,
Frank
  
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what frank said
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what frank said - 12-11-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr's Farm View Post
Density of materials is where you'll notice the biggest difference. Closely related to density is the tone of the wood, or how it vibrates.

- Shaft density. More GPI (grain per inch) means stiffer hit and better/tighter tone (generally).

- Shaft taper/diameter. The more mass of the shaft will have an effect, but it will also depend on the GPI and material type.

- Tip density. It is afterall the part that touches the ball. Think of Elkmaster to G10 break tip, then everything else in between.

- Ferrule material. Chapters can be written on this. Suffice to say, there is a wide range of materials for this, going from absorbant to stiff. This will make a big difference to your "feel". It's interesting to compare ferrule stock when it's in 3-4 foot long dowells, bouncing them on the concrete floor.

Personally, the tip and ferrule are probably most key to how a particule cue will feel, followed closely by shaft density/tone, then taper shape/diameter.

Some think that joint material and joint construction plays a big part to the feel of a cue, but I personally think that is secondary to the above criteria. Good shaft wood will make or break a cue, IMHO. If you can't get a cue to feel right for you by adjusting/changing any of the shaft components then you have more discerning feel than I (which may not be saying much).

Of course, if inferior materials or poor construction techiques are used for the butt then you'll notice it may be harder to tune your cue with shaft components alone.

Of course it's all subjective, but this is just my opinion. You'll likey get as many opinions on this as there are posters to this thread.

Regards,
Frank
my opinion too
  
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12-12-2009, 06:41 PM

Thank you guys for giving me a much better understanding. I bowled for 20+ years (had a 210 average), and know about adjusting equipment and how to fine tune it. But was wondering if there was something similar to that in regards to pool, turns out that there is, it's just not as readilly done/available (in terms of cunstruction). If someone wanted a cue to feel a certain way, then the time to really be able to dial it in would be at the time of construction wheh ordered from the maker. But after it's made, if you get it on the second hand market, then the only options really are to change the shaft.
  
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12-13-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by calboy8686 View Post
But after it's made, if you get it on the second hand market, then the only options really are to change the shaft.
Not necessarily...you would be amazed at how a simple changing of the tip and/or ferrule can make. That would certainly be the place to start, as opposed to buying a whole new shaft.

Lisa


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12-13-2009, 11:39 PM

You definatly have a point Lisa. So even something as minor as a tip change can affect hit. What's the difference between the different ferule materials - Ivory vs Micatra vs Delrin? Soft, Med, Hard tips?
  
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12-14-2009, 12:02 AM

Like everyone said...all these combination are very subjective. Hard compare to soft tip ranges from tips to tips. You really have to try all these combination for yourself to find out what will work for you.

I've just tried no ferrule shaft and with my favorite Molavia Hard tip and I addicted to them now. I made a few shafts with no ferrule for Parica and several local players in New York and they love the way it plays. I have a hard molavia installed on most of these shafts and I think the layer tip itself is strong enough to act like a pad or ferrule for the shaft. With no ferrule material to affect the tone of the shaft....what you get is pure feel and natural 360 deflection!!

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low deflection shafts- hard or soft hit
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low deflection shafts- hard or soft hit - 12-14-2009, 01:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr's Farm View Post
Density of materials is where you'll notice the biggest difference. Closely related to density is the tone of the wood, or how it vibrates.

- Shaft density. More GPI (grain per inch) means stiffer hit and better/tighter tone (generally).

- Shaft taper/diameter. The more mass of the shaft will have an effect, but it will also depend on the GPI and material type.

- Tip density. It is afterall the part that touches the ball. Think of Elkmaster to G10 break tip, then everything else in between.

- Ferrule material. Chapters can be written on this. Suffice to say, there is a wide range of materials for this, going from absorbant to stiff. This will make a big difference to your "feel". It's interesting to compare ferrule stock when it's in 3-4 foot long dowells, bouncing them on the concrete floor.

Personally, the tip and ferrule are probably most key to how a particule cue will feel, followed closely by shaft density/tone, then taper shape/diameter.

Some think that joint material and joint construction plays a big part to the feel of a cue, but I personally think that is secondary to the above criteria. Good shaft wood will make or break a cue, IMHO. If you can't get a cue to feel right for you by adjusting/changing any of the shaft components then you have more discerning feel than I (which may not be saying much).

Of course, if inferior materials or poor construction techiques are used for the butt then you'll notice it may be harder to tune your cue with shaft components alone.

Of course it's all subjective, but this is just my opinion. You'll likey get as many opinions on this as there are posters to this thread.

Regards,
Frank
Do low deflection shafts give a hard or soft hit?
  
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12-14-2009, 10:29 AM

I do not consider Hard and Stiff to be the same type of hit.
A stiff hitting shaft can hit very soft. For instance take a bar cue with a soft ferrule on it. It hits stiff, but also hits soft.
Take a 12mm pro tapered, stainless piloted joint cue with an Ivory ferrule. It hits whippy, but also hits hard.
A hard or soft hit is in the feel and vibration coming back down the cue. Feel mostly comes from the tip, ferrule and joint. The forearm wood also has some effect on the feel.
Now stiffness comes from the taper, grainline density, and the individual piece of wood. Also laminated wood tends to be stiffer.
  
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12-14-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlowmj View Post
Do low deflection shafts give a hard or soft hit?
I don't think I'm qualified to give a definitive answer on this, as I've only played with an early generation Predator. In my experience it does seem stiffer, but the feel is a little dead for me. The tone isn't the same as my standard maple shaft and the Predator doesn't give me the same feedback.
Both shafts are using Moori mediums.

Whether it's a hard or soft hit, all I can say is that it's stiff, but probably a soft hit, simply for the lack of feel or feedback I get from it.

Please keep in mind, this is just my opinion based on a singular Predator shaft. YMMV

Frank
  
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12-28-2009, 07:13 AM

To me one of the benefits of a well designed, laminated shaft is, of course, lower deflection but also the increased stiffness allows for a longer pro taper and a smaller diameter tip, if that's what you prefer. I happen to like the 12-13" pro taper with a 12.75mm tip that's offered on the Predator 314 and some of the other premium laminated shafts.To me, it's simply more comfortable and allows for an effortless follow through. What I give up in feel I make up for it with better playability. Conversely, I have tried conventional shafts with long pro tapers and smaller tip diameters and most of them feel too whippy and their play is less consistent.The "holy grail" is to be able to offer a low deflection shaft with a long pro taper with the great feel of a fine conventional shaft. I've heard about and tried some custom made shafts on some of the best cues and I still haven't played a conventional shaft that offers the same low deflection of a Predator 314 or Z shaft. They feel better than a laminated shaft but they inevitably deflect the cue ball more and have a shorter or conical taper, which I don't feel comfortable with.

Last edited by kasparovII; 12-28-2009 at 07:19 AM.
  
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12-28-2009, 12:06 PM

Once you have chosen a cue with weight, balance and other factors of importance to you, if a cue is overly rigid or stiff feeling it can be fit to the skilled (with emphasis) player by extending the shaft taper gradually to improve the players abilty to move the cueball without sacrificing accuracy. Sometimes this involves sending the shafts back to the maker 1 to 3 times. Most of the cuebuilders I work with will do this at no labor charge for the new cue owner. If the shafts are already too flexible, this is not an option.

Cue weights can also be slightlly adjusted without major shifts in a good balance point. Tips and ferrules also affect the feel and action and can be changed. A reduction in shaft size, like from 13mm to 12.75mm, is another way an in stock cue can be personalized or custom fit.

You need to have some idea of what you like as a starting point and be of a reasonably high skill level to discern subtle changes. I hope that helps.

Martin


Quote:
Originally Posted by calboy8686 View Post
Thank you guys for giving me a much better understanding. I bowled for 20+ years (had a 210 average), and know about adjusting equipment and how to fine tune it. But was wondering if there was something similar to that in regards to pool, turns out that there is, it's just not as readilly done/available (in terms of cunstruction). If someone wanted a cue to feel a certain way, then the time to really be able to dial it in would be at the time of construction wheh ordered from the maker. But after it's made, if you get it on the second hand market, then the only options really are to change the shaft.
  
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Feel - 12-28-2009, 04:39 PM

I also think your grip determines how much you "feel" the hit. If you have a death grip on the cue, you will dampen vibration and have less feedback. Like Willie Mosconi said, you don't want to grip the cue harder than you would grip the handle of a tea cup while having tea with the Queen. If you can't feel it, you won't know what you like. Just my opinion.
  
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