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View Poll Results: Is there aGod / Gods?
BELIEVER: Yes I believe there is/are God or Gods. 70 42.68%
ATHEIST: NO I do not believe in God/Gods 40 24.39%
AGNOSTIC: I do not know as I lack evidence one way or the other. 45 27.44%
None of your damn business. 9 5.49%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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11-28-2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp
But fundamentally speaking, the entire notion of "purpose" is a completely incoherent concept given the atheistic worldview. Things happen because they happen. There is no such thing as purpose, or intent, or design. You can go so far as to say that say there is no such thing as reason either.
Well to pick up on what was said earlier, you could say that the Moon serves a purpose; it controls the tides. However, that does not mean it was created by some higher power to serve the purpose of controlling the tides. The Moon came into existence in a certain place at a certain time. As a result, it had an affect on the Earth. You could call that affect a purpose. And you probably would, because we're used to the tides coming in and going out. It seems like the way things were destined to be. But if the Moon had never been created, our tides would behave differently, and we would accept that as the way things were destined to be.
I'm talking more about the actions of man. It may appear that I have a "purpose" in writing this post, but that's just an illusion. It may appear that Michelangelo "designed" the statue of David, but that's just an illusion as well. In the atheistic worldview of reductionism and materialism, the actions of me writing this post and Michelangelo sculpting David are fundamentally no different than the formation of a star in a distant galaxy or a boulder rolling down a mountainside.

If there is no room for the supernatural, then EVERYTHING must be natural. That must also include such atrocities as slavery, eugenics, and genocide if they are done.
  
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11-28-2012, 09:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
I am not implying that the universal laws would be changing, I am implying that everything around us (and in the potential other dimensions) follow those universal laws (whether we know about them yet or not).

About moon....yes it is there because of events that took place. This is all still in line with the universal laws. Now let us assume I was an astronaut and I threw a spanner in the general direction of...well....out of our solarsystem and with some luck it was not captured by the gravitational pull of any other object on the way stopping it in it's tracks....and over time it would gain mass by collecting space dust and there some where along the trip it triggered a sequence of events that triggered some bacteria hitting some planet and life evolving. Does this all make me then God? Or perhaps just amazing sequence of events?

I am saying that we make choices that are limited by these "universal laws" and all changes we make in this infinitely complex system we know as universe would cause reactions that also follow these same universal laws.

Which part of this is in conflict with the universal laws?
Sorry ... but if you are a true atheist you have no "choice" since you record setting wrench throw was the result of a muscular/skeletal motion that resulted from a chemical reaction in your brain which resulted from the molecules and atoms in your brain being in their pre ordained location at their preordained time which resulted from which direction these bits of matter were flung at the moment of creation ... hence, in the true atheist POV you weren't god by throwing the wrench. You were merely a sack of elements that could have one nothing but throw the wrench ... just as the Moon is where it is because it couldn't be anywhere else.


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11-28-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp View Post
I'm talking more about the actions of man. It may appear that I have a "purpose" in writing this post, but that's just an illusion. It may appear that Michelangelo "designed" the statue of David, but that's just an illusion as well. In the atheistic worldview of reductionism and materialism, the actions of me writing this post and Michelangelo sculpting David are fundamentally no different than the formation of a star in a distant galaxy or a boulder rolling down a mountainside.

If there is no room for the supernatural, then EVERYTHING must be natural. That must also include such atrocities as slavery, eugenics, and genocide if they are done.
Well put ... if we live in the universe the atheists believe we live in, then everyone in prison should rightfully be released.


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  (#394)
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11-28-2012, 10:41 AM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Well put ... if we live in the universe the atheists believe we live in, then everyone in prison should rightfully be released.
Atheism does not require determinism. It's a gross overstatement to lump atheists into a bucket like this. Many very prominent atheists argue for free will like Daniel Dennett (Elbow Room). Some, like Sam Harris argue that the popular notions of free will needs some clarifications, and that although free will does not exist this has very positive creative and moral implications.

The subject has been debated for a very long time and I should say that plenty of religious people are or have been determinists as well. To conflate atheism with determinism is simplistic and misguided.


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11-28-2012, 12:21 PM

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Originally Posted by jmccarthy View Post
Atheism does not require determinism.
This is true (QM theory suggests that the universe is inherently indeterministic), but atheism does require there is no such thing as libertarian free will. The reason is because libertarianism (in the philosophical sense) requires an agent, which is the thing choosing an action. Agency is an incoherent concept in materialistic atheism, since humans are merely composed of physical particles slave to the laws of physics and nothing more. There is no room for agency.

Now, it is true that some atheists hold on to the existence of "free will", but this is where we get into a debate in semantics. Compatibilist free will (that says that free will is compatible with determinism) is NOT identical to libertarian free will, and I don't think any prominent atheist would believe libertarian free will exists. But still, if libertarianism is false, then you cannot escape the absolute absurdness of existence.

But as I stated before, just because something is absurd doesn't make it false. I just simply would like to believe that all of existence is not totally absurd.

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11-28-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmccarthy View Post
Atheism does not require determinism. It's a gross overstatement to lump atheists into a bucket like this. Many very prominent atheists argue for free will like Daniel Dennett (Elbow Room). Some, like Sam Harris argue that the popular notions of free will needs some clarifications, and that although free will does not exist this has very positive creative and moral implications.

The subject has been debated for a very long time and I should say that plenty of religious people are or have been determinists as well. To conflate atheism with determinism is simplistic and misguided.
You can argue all you want ... but claiming that there is no Creator, therefor everything obeys the physical laws of the universe except that humanity has a pass on this and that this pass was given by something that doesn't exist is just risibly illogical.


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11-28-2012, 02:52 PM

Since we are discussing the nature of what it is to be an atheist, I will offer the suggestion that we are all atheists, the only difference is to what degree. I'm sure all of the people posting in this thread have gods they don't believe in- Zeus, Thor, Wotan, Loki, Ares, etc. So, with regard to these gods, they are atheists; they don't think the burden of proof has been met to a degree where they believe these gods are actually real. The only difference is that I take it one god further and don't believe in any of the god claims.


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11-28-2012, 03:00 PM

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Originally Posted by jsp View Post
This is true (QM theory suggests that the universe is inherently indeterministic)
QM also shows that things exist as probability wave where all outcomes exist until a conscious entity observes things ... at which point the wave collapses and A reality solidifies.

Taken to it's logicl conclusion, at the moment of creation the big bang either banged ... or didn't, and the probability wave couldn't collapse without a conscious observer.

Who/What did the observation?


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11-28-2012, 03:04 PM

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Originally Posted by JLW View Post
Since we are discussing the nature of what it is to be an atheist, I will offer the suggestion that we are all atheists, the only difference is to what degree. I'm sure all of the people posting in this thread have gods they don't believe in- Zeus, Thor, Wotan, Loki, Ares, etc. So, with regard to these gods, they are atheists; they don't think the burden of proof has been met to a degree where they believe these gods are actually real. The only difference is that I take it one god further and don't believe in any of the god claims.
Not me. I believe in all of them. Loki there!
  
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11-28-2012, 03:17 PM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Sorry ... but if you are a true atheist you have no "choice" since you record setting wrench throw was the result of a muscular/skeletal motion that resulted from a chemical reaction in your brain which resulted from the molecules and atoms in your brain being in their pre ordained location at their preordained time which resulted from which direction these bits of matter were flung at the moment of creation ... hence, in the true atheist POV you weren't god by throwing the wrench. You were merely a sack of elements that could have one nothing but throw the wrench ... just as the Moon is where it is because it couldn't be anywhere else.
I do not agree
and I never claimed to be an atheist either....agnostic rather.
I see these universal laws to be more setting the parameters in which chaos allows for a lot of variation.


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11-28-2012, 04:36 PM

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Originally Posted by THaney View Post
Not me. I believe in all of them. Loki there!
I believe in all of them as well ...all these many names are simply different cultures trying to understand the same thing.


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11-28-2012, 04:41 PM

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I do not agree
and I never claimed to be an atheist either....agnostic rather.
I see these universal laws to be more setting the parameters in which chaos allows for a lot of variation.
You may not agree, but it makes no difference.

The heavens behave in an exact fashion, they do not have a "lot of variation" to work within.

Universal laws set exact parameters with no slop.

The motions of the heavens are quite predictable.


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11-29-2012, 03:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LWW View Post
You may not agree, but it makes no difference.

The heavens behave in an exact fashion, they do not have a "lot of variation" to work within.

Universal laws set exact parameters with no slop.

The motions of the heavens are quite predictable.
quite possible they behave in an exact fashion within parameters....
this still does not rule out possibility of randomness within these parameters


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11-29-2012, 04:53 AM

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quite possible they behave in an exact fashion within parameters....
this still does not rule out possibility of randomness within these parameters
Sorry, but it most certainly does.

Universal laws do not allow for devation.

If you and I drop identical cannonballs from the op of the Empire State Building at the same time on the same day they will fall at the exact same speed ... not because they choose to, but gecause they have to.

Yet, even though the chemicals in your brain are the same as mine, we ome to different conclusions. This holds true even with idntical twins sharing the same situation.

Why?


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11-29-2012, 04:55 AM

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Originally Posted by JLW View Post
Since we are discussing the nature of what it is to be an atheist, I will offer the suggestion that we are all atheists, the only difference is to what degree. I'm sure all of the people posting in this thread have gods they don't believe in- Zeus, Thor, Wotan, Loki, Ares, etc. So, with regard to these gods, they are atheists; they don't think the burden of proof has been met to a degree where they believe these gods are actually real. The only difference is that I take it one god further and don't believe in any of the god claims.
So you actually have no idea what the word means.


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