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05-06-2015, 12:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Chops02 View Post
As for the 10 ball...I think in the big money 9 ball at smokin aces played on valleys the high pack was 6. And that's over two years of that tournament. The game may be easier, sure, but its still far from easy.

6 was a high run for one of the tournaments by Kiamco. Saez ran a 9 pack at one against Hall, and a 7 or 8 pack against McMinn and Chuck Raulston. Dennis ran 3 different 8 packs at the last one, against Durbin, Berg (who was hit with the 8 pack before he even got to the table) It doesn't get much better than the Smokin Aces barbox and 1p events.

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05-06-2015, 01:12 PM

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Originally Posted by JeremiahGage View Post
Would a U.S. Open tournament be better on 9-footers? Probably
Is having a U.S. Open tournament on 7-footers better than not having it at all? Absolutely

Last year these tournaments didn't even happen, so I'm glad they are doing them.

Long races reduce the effect of chance, so I bet we still see the same players rise to the top. I'm looking forward to playing next to the pros and watching them in these events.

They could always hold the event. Just call it something else.

Names have meaning. Just look at how CW gets hammered when he tries to call his 14.1 event a "World" championship.

Lou Figueroa

Last edited by lfigueroa; 05-06-2015 at 01:22 PM.
  
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05-06-2015, 01:14 PM

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Originally Posted by cleary View Post
"if you don't like it, don't play" -lfigueroa

I think it's entirely possible some players will elect to not play because it's a bar table event while others might decide to go for exactly that reason.

I also think the same will be true for spectators and aficionados.

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05-06-2015, 01:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...

Mike, personally I hate the "support the effort because (a promoter is trying)" argument because in the past it's been used to prop up guys like up DM and KT, and in the present day BB. MG doesn't deserve to be put in the same boat as those guys.

The rest of your argument is valid IMO but best left for another thread.

Lou Figueroa
  
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Talking 05-06-2015, 06:22 PM

It is obvious that majority of responses to this thread are not in favor of 7 ft events .
And I absolutely agree. Pros should play on big tables not small tables. It is nonsense to give MC Cup ranking points to 7 ft events. If not enough 9 ft events, count international events. If not enough international events, MC Cup can start own qualifying / selection 9ft tourneys.
  
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05-06-2015, 07:43 PM

You guys might as well face it, the 9ft table era is going away. Pool hall owners are going to the bar tables so they can pack in more league players and actually make money. Everything about the game is slowly changing: break cues, magic racks, jump cues, gloves, custom chalk, chalk holders $3k playing cues. It's going to be an adapt or quit for you.


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05-06-2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I also think the same will be true for spectators and aficionados.
I was starting to think about how to make my schedule match up with this event...until I read about the 7 footers
  
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05-07-2015, 01:19 AM

Professional Players should be able to play on ALL types of equipment. I personally love to see these players challenged by varying conditions.

This brings in more of the mental aspect of the game. Some will get out of their comfort zone by complaining and agonizing, others will embrace the challenge and rise to the occasion. The latter is the Champion.

Can't wait to see how this unfolds. I do think the Pro's should be playing winner breaks and take what you make, no jump cues for the 8 ball.

Gonna be interesting.

Ray


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05-07-2015, 01:44 AM

This has been a debate in many threads here recently of bar boxes & elite level players. I've made my feelings known on the subject & at the end of the day anybody can play on any table they want but I feel that any tournament calling itself a U.S. OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP, no matter the game should not be played on a bar box. It just shouldn't.


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05-07-2015, 01:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanB View Post
You guys might as well face it, the 9ft table era is going away. Pool hall owners are going to the bar tables so they can pack in more league players and actually make money. Everything about the game is slowly changing: break cues, magic racks, jump cues, gloves, custom chalk, chalk holders $3k playing cues. It's going to be an adapt or quit for you.
Everything you mentioned except the magic rack has been around at least 24 years
  
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05-07-2015, 03:06 AM

7 footers? Why so big? You can fit a lot more 4 footers in the venue.

Why not bumper pool?

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05-07-2015, 03:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
I think the change to 7' tables for top players actually forces into the spotlight an issue we already had but didn't fully realize--a fundamental problem in the game that doesn't have to do with table size and that can be addressed.

Many people seem not to be understanding a key point in this issue. It is I suppose not obvious. So please consider,

There are two types of games

(1) Scored Games (golf, bowling and diving are examples). These are just player against equipment. Players may choose to compare scores, but opponents are either nonexistent or irrelevant.

(2) Interactive Games (boxing, basketball, soccer, football, and pool are examples). These are player against player .

Equipment/fields/courts/specifications are important for each, but equipment plays very different roles in the two types of games.

For interactive games, unless the game is broken modest changes in equipment/specifications are not so important. You can make a soccer goal 10% wider and the game would still be good. the defensive strategy would just change to compensate. The game wouldn't be easier; it would just be different. It should be the same situation with pool. If it feels like it is not, then that's a sign of a different problem--one with the game itself.

As an interactive game, pool shouldn't by itself be hard or easy; rather, it should be hard against Darren Appleton and easy against me.

If you have a sense that a lesser pro has a chance against Darren Appleton on a 7' table that he wouldn't have against Darren playing the same race on a 9' table, then don't look at the table, look at the game itself. The first thing to look at is what is an apples-to-apples comparison. If there are more break-and-runs on the 7' table, then games go faster and a tournament that was race to 9 on a 9' table can now be race to 11. That should help.

the real issue--the tragedy of the runout

But the elephant in the room issue is not the table size. It is that we have created games for which a one-inning out is too frequent for top pros.

A match at a professional-level tournament should have at least a minimum number (perhaps 15-20) of actual changes in control. This means it first looked like player A had the upper hand in a game, and then something happened to give player B the upper hand. This something could be something A did poorly or something B did well. It is these changes in control that bring out the subtle differences in deep and varied skills amongst the players. Every time there is a break and run, that is a game for which it didn't matter who the opponent was. And that goes against the spirit of the interactive game.

The way we've been playing 9-ball, matches have too few actual changes in control. A forced change in control (like alternating the break) doesn't count here. Games like 8-ball and 9-ball for which players might frequently string together racks with winner breaks are a problem. We have tried to address that problem by going to alternate breaks and by considering 10-foot tables--both poor excuses for solutions.

Some might question this as a problem, given that better players are going to run more racks and have more packages. That's true. But this mindset treats the game like a scored game, not an interactive game. It relegates a match to a series of exhibitions interspersed with an occasional actual change in control. It takes what should at best be a second-tier skill (the break shot) and elevates it to a comical level. And it makes the most dramatic situations in a match be like pulling the lever on a slot machine--whether the player is going to have a shot when all the balls stop rolling on the break. And of course this situation gets worse for rotation games going to a 7' table. When a person comments about comparing pool on a 7' table to golf on a par-3 course, that person has already (probably unwittingly) relegated pool to being a scored game. In other words these structural problems have taken roots.

Again, we want pool to be a true interactive game, where it really matters many times during a match who your opponent is and where several different skills come into play in determining a winner. The game should be structured so that this basic feature exists on all major equipment. This is not hard to do but will require some discussion.

For now, it would be good if people tried to have a positive attitude and embraced the efforts of the few promoters who are actually trying to do something...
This was an excellent post that does a great job of articulating most, if not all the problems with the current games in pool.
  
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05-07-2015, 04:34 AM

I think a great stat to have (calling AtLarge) would be run out percentage when player comes to the table with an open shot.

Do it for both 8ball and 9ball on 7' and 9' matches, and compare the results.
  
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05-07-2015, 07:29 AM

it'll be interesting to see how many of the pros (as well as non-pros), who were so vocal about Cyclop balls - show.
.


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05-07-2015, 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PINKLADY View Post
it'll be interesting to see how many of the pros (as well as non-pros), who were so vocal about Cyclop balls - show.
.
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