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ShortBusRuss
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10-18-2019, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by CK6Speed View Post
I'm just glad Travis Niklich took a chance on me when I was new with zero iTrader and little posts back in 2008. He sold me one of his beautiful 2008 Full Splice signed Blackcreek cues which I paid over $1,000 for via Palpal. He gave my my first iTrader rating. Since then I was able to purchase from various sellers here a 2009 Richard Black for over $2,000, a Caroline Custom, A Ned Morris, Mike Gulyassy made serial number 2 It's George which is #2 our of 10 made, and a Lee Peppers Custom. I still have relatively little posts compared to many. You have to start somewhere.
Trudat, trudat.. I was simply being the devil's advocate. I do believe all explanations to the contrary, that a lot of our older members simply aren't comfortable with digital-only monetary transactions.. The more that comes out though, Duane might have just gotten cold feet, at no fault of the buyer.

Personally, if my money got returned to me, I simply would never have really batted an eye. He was trying to lowball Duane a bit, and that seems rampant on AZBilliards, so I really don't fault Duane too much here, but I guess I am in the minority...
  
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  (#92)
iusedtoberich
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10-18-2019, 06:44 PM

Here is my opinion worth 2 cents

1) I believe the seller cancelled the deal because he was worried of a scam. I 100% do not believe he cancelled because he was not happy with the agreed upon price.

2a) I read through every single of the buyer's 15 posts. Half of them are in this thread, and the other half are all to buy or sell an item. Not a single post was for regular pool talk. Only buying and selling talk.

2b) As a seller, I would be a bit concerned I was getting scammed, if there was a brand new member (with about 8 posts at the time of the sale), and every one of his 8 posts was asking to buy an item on here, or to sell an item that he owns.

3) I don't believe the buyer was looking to scam anyone. Reading his posts he sounds like a regular guy to me.

4) I think the seller was simply unsure of the buyer, and cautious, and therefore decided to cancel the deal instead of risking losing $575, which IMO, is a ton of money to be out on a scam. Its one thing to lose that in a gambling session, but to be outright robbed of $575 is 100 times worse.

5a) There are TONS of scammers who use PayPal. The way it works, is they buy an item, receive said item, and then file a claim with PP that they never received it. PP usually sides with the buyer, and the seller is out. This is WITH paying as a goods and service. It sound to me like the seller was worried about a scam like this. Now, paying with friends and family, usually means once the money payment is made, it can't be requested back by the buyer. I believe the seller did not know the distinction between the two, and was worried the buyer might do something like that.

5b) Another way to scam with PP is paying via an echeck. I think the buyer can cancel it before it clears, which is roughly 5 business day. If the seller ships in that time, he is out the money.

6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment. I'd rather trust the person I'm doing business with, and have them pay me, or me pay them, with friends and family. If the person is a good scammer, they will find a way to get over on you regardless of how they pretend to pay you. Hell, you could meet someone to sell an item in person in cash, they can hit you over the head, take your item, keep their cash, and rob your wallet on top of that. If I was making a transaction with someone on here with no feedback, but a lot of posts, I'd read some of the posts and I think I could figure out quickly enough if the guy was full of shit or now, and whether I wanted to take a chance.

7) I really don't think either buyer or seller did wrong. Seller was simply uneasy and decided to protect himself.

8) Now that we got here, and have heard more from the buyer and seller, and both meant no harm and wanted to make the deal, I say they should resume the deal. If the buyer turns out to be a scammer after all this, then I'll eat my hat!

Good luck to all
  
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HawaiianEye
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10-18-2019, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post

6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment.
Whether you despise it, or not, it is their service and they are due compensation for people using it. I'm not going to argue how much it should be because that is their choice. As long as they have customers, they will adjust their prices as needed in order to suit their profit margins.

If people don't like paying the charges, they shouldn't use the service. Simple as that.
  
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10-18-2019, 07:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Here is my opinion worth 2 cents

1) I believe the seller cancelled the deal because he was worried of a scam. I 100% do not believe he cancelled because he was not happy with the agreed upon price.

2a) I read through every single of the buyer's 15 posts. Half of them are in this thread, and the other half are all to buy or sell an item. Not a single post was for regular pool talk. Only buying and selling talk.

2b) As a seller, I would be a bit concerned I was getting scammed, if there was a brand new member (with about 8 posts at the time of the sale), and every one of his 8 posts was asking to buy an item on here, or to sell an item that he owns.

3) I don't believe the buyer was looking to scam anyone. Reading his posts he sounds like a regular guy to me.

4) I think the seller was simply unsure of the buyer, and cautious, and therefore decided to cancel the deal instead of risking losing $575, which IMO, is a ton of money to be out on a scam. Its one thing to lose that in a gambling session, but to be outright robbed of $575 is 100 times worse.

5a) There are TONS of scammers who use PayPal. The way it works, is they buy an item, receive said item, and then file a claim with PP that they never received it. PP usually sides with the buyer, and the seller is out. This is WITH paying as a goods and service. It sound to me like the seller was worried about a scam like this. Now, paying with friends and family, usually means once the money payment is made, it can't be requested back by the buyer. I believe the seller did not know the distinction between the two, and was worried the buyer might do something like that.

5b) Another way to scam with PP is paying via an echeck. I think the buyer can cancel it before it clears, which is roughly 5 business day. If the seller ships in that time, he is out the money.

6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment. I'd rather trust the person I'm doing business with, and have them pay me, or me pay them, with friends and family. If the person is a good scammer, they will find a way to get over on you regardless of how they pretend to pay you. Hell, you could meet someone to sell an item in person in cash, they can hit you over the head, take your item, keep their cash, and rob your wallet on top of that. If I was making a transaction with someone on here with no feedback, but a lot of posts, I'd read some of the posts and I think I could figure out quickly enough if the guy was full of shit or now, and whether I wanted to take a chance.

7) I really don't think either buyer or seller did wrong. Seller was simply uneasy and decided to protect himself.

8) Now that we got here, and have heard more from the buyer and seller, and both meant no harm and wanted to make the deal, I say they should resume the deal. If the buyer turns out to be a scammer after all this, then I'll eat my hat!

Good luck to all
I agree with most of what you said. It seems that the seller made an honest mistake and the buyer was not out to scam anyone. However, if you make a deal and there is no evidence of fraud or other shenanigans, then it is your (moral and professional) obligation to follow through. I see this as no different than making a bet, and then unilaterally canceling it after the fact.
  
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iusedtoberich
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10-18-2019, 07:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
Whether you despise it, or not, it is their service and they are due compensation for people using it. I'm not going to argue how much it should be because that is their choice. As long as they have customers, they will adjust their prices as needed in order to suit their profit margins.

If people don't like paying the charges, they shouldn't use the service. Simple as that.
I see your point.

One thing I believe about pp for sales is the 3% fee is meant for people selling on eBay or legit merchant ecommerce sites. I kind of think on a site like ours, a sale between two parties of a used cue stick really falls under friends and family, and would not be breaking PayPal "rules". I could very well be wrong on that.

Also, there are several services other than paypal that are free. Apple Pay, Facebook Pay, Venmo (which is owned by PayPal I believe), Square Cash, and more. I'm a landlord as a side job and some of my tenants pay me in Venmo and Square Cash. I probably got paid 30K that way in the past couple of years, and neither I nor my tenants ever paid a dime in fees.
  
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  (#96)
ShortBusRuss
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10-18-2019, 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJTyler747 View Post
I agree with most of what you said. It seems that the seller made an honest mistake and the buyer was not out to scam anyone. However, if you make a deal and there is no evidence of fraud or other shenanigans, then it is your (moral and professional) obligation to follow through. I see this as no different than making a bet, and then unilaterally canceling it after the fact.
But, before the playing starts. Or before the game that you're betting on starts. Happens all the time, and nobody generally thinks the guy who backs out before a ball is hit is a sh!tbird. And that's what the case really is. Even Judge Judy pretty much always give one party the option to pay the money back, or give up the goods. Usually doesn't make a difference to her, which is which.

Personally, I feel it's his transaction to cancel any time he sees fit, up to the time the cue is shipped, and for any reason. Nobody is "getting hurt" either way, as long as the payment is returned in full. So nobody in the future has anything whatsoever to be "leery" about with Duane, as long as he returns the money promptly.

Really, no one is getting hurt here. It's a pool cue. I don't judge you for being upset, but there's been plenty of times I called someone off Craigslist, told em I am on the way with the money, and the item is gone when I get there, and all I get is a "Sorry, man.. They had the money ready to go..." Dem's the breaks, sometimes. Oh, but I WILL say this....... Those who try to get the seller down on prices as a habit... DON'T be surprised if this happens to you a lot. If you had paid what he originally asked, 100% chance this thread does not occur. :-D

Either way, I hope it works out.

Last edited by ShortBusRuss; 10-18-2019 at 07:39 PM.
  
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  (#97)
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10-18-2019, 07:48 PM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
But, before the playing starts. Or before the game that you're betting on starts. Happens all the time, and nobody generally thinks the guy who backs out before a ball is hit is a sh!tbird. And that's what the case really is. Even Judge Judy pretty much always give one party the option to pay the money back, or give up the goods. Usually doesn't make a difference to her, which is which.

Personally, I feel it's his transaction to cancel any time he sees fit, up to the time the cue is shipped, and for any reason. Nobody is "getting hurt" either way, as long as the payment is returned in full. So nobody in the future has anything whatsoever to be "leery" about with Duane, as long as he returns the money promptly.

Really, no one is getting hurt here. It's a pool cue. I don't judge you for being upset, but there's been plenty of times I called someone off Craigslist, told em I am on the way with the money, and the item is gone when I get there, and all I get is a "Sorry, man.. They had the money ready to go..." Dem's the breaks, sometimes. Oh, but I WILL say this....... Those who try to get the seller down on prices as a habit... DON'T be surprised if this happens to you a lot. If you had paid what he originally asked, 100% chance this thread does not occur. :-D

Either way, I hope it works out.
Hypothetical scenario.

Buyer is eyeing two different cues and wants to purchase one.

Decides on seller (a).

Sends seller (a) money and expects to get cue.

Seller (a) reneges on deal and sends money back.

Buyer goes back to buy cue from seller (b), but that cue is now sold.

Seller (a) has tied up buyer's time and money for no reason and caused the buyer to miss an opportunity to buy the other cue from seller (b)..

I've seen this happen on a car sale before.

Last edited by HawaiianEye; 10-18-2019 at 07:50 PM.
  
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10-18-2019, 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
Hypothetical scenario.

Buyer is eyeing two different cues and wants to purchase one.

Decides on seller (a).

Sends seller (a) money and expects to get cue.

Seller (a) reneges on deal and sends money back.

Buyer goes back to buy cue from seller (b), but that cue is now sold.

Seller (a) has tied up buyer's time and money for no reason and caused the buyer to miss an opportunity to buy the other cue from seller (b)..

I've seen this happen on a car sale before.
And I'd be sympathetic..... If this were anything other than a 100% luxury item.
  
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10-18-2019, 08:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Remick View Post
Man,
that's all I was thinking-
I sell with friends and family I have no recourse-
AND I WAS WRONG!
That is all I was trying to do here in the thread THAT I STARTED"
-GET SOME ASSISTANCE/ADVICE IS ALL"
Thanks
Here is some advice: if you enter into a contract, fulfill it.

Quote:
For a contract to be legally binding it must contain four essential elements:

an offer

an acceptance

an intention to create a legal relationship

a consideration (usually money).

However it may still be considered invalid if it:

entices someone to commit a crime, or is illegal

is entered into by someone that lacks capacity, such as a minor or bankrupt

was agreed through misleading or deceptive conduct, duress, unconscionable conduct or undue influence.
All of the elements of a contract were there, and none of the disqualifying factors were present. You would be found in breach, in the very unlikely event this came to a legal adjudification. And it wouldn't be close.
  
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10-18-2019, 08:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
And I'd be sympathetic..... If this were anything other than a 100% luxury item.
so it is OK to breach a contract if it involves a luxury item?
  
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10-18-2019, 08:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KissedOut View Post
so it is OK to breach a contract if it involves a luxury item?
Kind of sounds like a cop out answer, doesn't it?

Deals are deals.

If you DON'T want to sell to first-time buyers or people with no trading rep, then state that in your sale thread.

The seller had NO "legitimate" reason for canceling the sale.
  
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10-18-2019, 09:09 PM

Whats the over/under on 10 pages?


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

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10-18-2019, 09:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KissedOut View Post
Here is some advice: if you enter into a contract, fulfill it.



All of the elements of a contract were there, and none of the disqualifying factors were present. You would be found in breach, in the very unlikely event this came to a legal adjudification. And it wouldn't be close.
Yup. And you'd be welcome to incur the expense of collecting?

Sometimes, people just like to get on their high horse about shiznitt that just doesn't matter in the end, and will give you high blood pressure, if you let it.
  
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10-18-2019, 09:22 PM

1/9 or 1/12 if you post using friends and family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
Whats the over/under on 10 pages?
  
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10-18-2019, 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by u12armresl View Post
1/9 or 1/12 if you post using friends and family.
If you wont take a cashiers check, no action for you.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

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