Learning to Aim - Child vs Adult

Dan White · Jul 22, 2019

I always had a pool table in the house. My earliest memory was standing at opposite sides of the table from my brothers. We would wing balls down the table at each other (on the table surface) trying to hit each other's hands. I also recall watching my father play while images from Vietnam were on the TV.

There seem to be two basic camps - those who go through a particular aiming process such as aiming the shaft a particular way and measuring certain offsets, and those who simply "see" the shot and hit it.

I've always been more of a "hit it when it looks right" player and I grew up around pool. I can't remember my earliest days of playing but the thought occurred to me that those who learn at a young age might be less prone to using well defined aiming methods, and less able to understand why people use them at all.

Am I in the woods on this one?

Boxcar · Jul 22, 2019

No...........

BC21 · Jul 22, 2019

Dan White said:
I always had a pool table in the house. My earliest memory was standing at opposite sides of the table from my brothers. We would wing balls down the table at each other (on the table surface) trying to hit each other's hands. I also recall watching my father play while images from Vietnam were on the TV.

There seem to be two basic camps - those who go through a particular aiming process such as aiming the shaft a particular way and measuring certain offsets, and those who simply "see" the shot and hit it.

I've always been more of a "hit it when it looks right" player and I grew up around pool. I can't remember my earliest days of playing but the thought occurred to me that those who learn at a young age might be less prone to using well defined aiming methods, and less able to understand why people use them at all.

Am I in the woods on this one?

I agree. When I look back to when I was 16 to 18 years old, there was no YouTube, there were no pool halls close by, and I didn't have any opportunity to obtain instruction via books, DVD's, or private lessons. I first got interested in pool by watching it on tv and watching my dad play at little hole in wall bar about a mile from the house. I'd drink coca cola and eat pistachios while he smoked camel cigarettes and drank whiskey.

When I was about 16 I started to play a couple nights a week at a girlfriend's house. Her dad a pool table. It was trial and error, shooting the cb to where it looked like it needed to be to make the ob go to the pocket. Within a couple of years I got pretty good, better than all my friends, and better than my dad and all of his friends.

I do believe if I'd had a dependable aiming system back then it could've shortened the rote learning process. I mean an aiming system like Poolology or any other method that allows you to develop shot recognition, a good feel for just seeing the shots and knowing them without relying on the system anymore.

bbb · Jul 22, 2019

if you learn a language as a child
you dont need to know the rules of grammar
it comes natural
when you learn it as an adult
knowing the rules helps to speak intelligently
i had to learn spanish as an adult
so that has been my experience
i think it transfers to all sports
jmho
icbw

BilliardsAbout · Jul 23, 2019

Dan White said:
I always had a pool table in the house. My earliest memory was standing at opposite sides of the table from my brothers. We would wing balls down the table at each other (on the table surface) trying to hit each other's hands. I also recall watching my father play while images from Vietnam were on the TV.

There seem to be two basic camps - those who go through a particular aiming process such as aiming the shaft a particular way and measuring certain offsets, and those who simply "see" the shot and hit it.

I've always been more of a "hit it when it looks right" player and I grew up around pool. I can't remember my earliest days of playing but the thought occurred to me that those who learn at a young age might be less prone to using well defined aiming methods, and less able to understand why people use them at all.

Am I in the woods on this one?

You are not in the woods at all. However, instructors often give someone a more rigorous system, especially for adults who come to use and say, "I used to be able to cut anything when I was a kid, but now I struggle, and I'm having trouble pocketing shots".

Dan White · Jul 23, 2019

bbb said:
if you learn a language as a child
you dont need to know the rules of grammar
it comes natural
when you learn it as an adult
knowing the rules helps to speak intelligently
i had to learn spanish as an adult
so that has been my experience
i think it transfers to all sports
jmho
icbw

Good analogy!

Dan White · Jul 23, 2019

BilliardsAbout said:
You are not in the woods at all. However, instructors often give someone a more rigorous system, especially for adults who come to use and say, "I used to be able to cut anything when I was a kid, but now I struggle, and I'm having trouble pocketing shots".

Yes, of course, instruction is still key. I just see people getting all wrapped up into how they aim and I'm always thinking that it isn't that difficult. I used to say 95% of pocketing a ball is the proper delivery of the cue, not aiming. I've been talked down to maybe 80%.

BC21 · Jul 29, 2019

Dan White said:
Yes, of course, instruction is still key. I just see people getting all wrapped up into how they aim and I'm always thinking that it isn't that difficult. I used to say 95% of pocketing a ball is the proper delivery of the cue, not aiming. I've been talked down to maybe 80%.

80%? For an experienced player you are probably right with 80 to 95% being directly related to the stroke delivery. For beginners or less experienced players, I'd be willing to put it closer to 50%.

If you have poor/inconsistent cue delivery PLUS inconsistent aiming accuracy, then you will surely do worse than someone with poor cue delivery but knows exactly where the cb needs to be every time. Take a kid with excellent spacial skills, just naturally recognizes where the cb needs to be for every shot. Once he develops a consistent stroke he'll be pocketing balls in machine-like fashion. Lets say he has a friend that started playing at the same time, and they each play/practice equally as far as time goes, but the friend does not have the natural skill of simply recognizing cb-ob relationships needed to pocket balls. The friend will require more table time if he/she expects to reach the same level of play as the naturally gifted player. Consistency is the result of repetition. The more we can repeat positive results, the more consistent we become at positive results. The more we repeat negative results, the longer it takes to develop consistent positive results.

Remember the experiment I did with my wife? She was not a pool player. I had her shoot several shots multiple times using the ghostball method, just having her estimate where the cb needed to be in order to pocket the ball, focusing on this imagined cb location. Then I had her shoot the same shots multiple times again, but told her exactly where to aim the tip of the cue (through ccb) in relation to the ob itself, using fractional aim points. The results proved (without a doubt) that with or without a consistent cue delivery there is more success pocketing balls when the aim line is known and not guessed or estimated.

I can probably find the data for that experiment. But it sure proved that a beginner can learn to pocket balls much quicker when they know exactly where to aim, rather than estimating or guessing where to aim. The stroke will eventually develop, but in the meantime you are programming your brain to recognize cb-ob relationships in much quicker fashion than traditional rote learning.

JB Cases · Nov 4, 2019

BC21 said:
80%? For an experienced player you are probably right with 80 to 95% being directly related to the stroke delivery. For beginners or less experienced players, I'd be willing to put it closer to 50%.

If you have poor/inconsistent cue delivery PLUS inconsistent aiming accuracy, then you will surely do worse than someone with poor cue delivery but knows exactly where the cb needs to be every time. Take a kid with excellent spacial skills, just naturally recognizes where the cb needs to be for every shot. Once he develops a consistent stroke he'll be pocketing balls in machine-like fashion. Lets say he has a friend that started playing at the same time, and they each play/practice equally as far as time goes, but the friend does not have the natural skill of simply recognizing cb-ob relationships needed to pocket balls. The friend will require more table time if he/she expects to reach the same level of play as the naturally gifted player. Consistency is the result of repetition. The more we can repeat positive results, the more consistent we become at positive results. The more we repeat negative results, the longer it takes to develop consistent positive results.

Remember the experiment I did with my wife? She was not a pool player. I had her shoot several shots multiple times using the ghostball method, just having her estimate where the cb needed to be in order to pocket the ball, focusing on this imagined cb location. Then I had her shoot the same shots multiple times again, but told her exactly where to aim the tip of the cue (through ccb) in relation to the ob itself, using fractional aim points. The results proved (without a doubt) that with or without a consistent cue delivery there is more success pocketing balls when the aim line is known and not guessed or estimated.

I can probably find the data for that experiment. But it sure proved that a beginner can learn to pocket balls much quicker when they know exactly where to aim, rather than estimating or guessing where to aim. The stroke will eventually develop, but in the meantime you are programming your brain to recognize cb-ob relationships in much quicker fashion than traditional rote learning.

I have done similar experiments with my staff.

I have also seen APA4s start making shots way above their pay grade with a simple lesson on 90/90.

One guy who came to my shop said it was like he was squaring up to the shot in a way that felt right after learning 90/90.

BC21 · Nov 4, 2019

JB Cases said:
I have done similar experiments with my staff.

I have also seen APA4s start making shots way above their pay grade with a simple lesson on 90/90.

One guy who came to my shop said it was like he was squaring up to the shot in a way that felt right after learning 90/90.

Cool. I'll never forget that experiment with my wife. She was so excited to make a few shots in a row. I had the cb within a foot of the ob and had her using a short bridge, all to help reduce the effects of a poor stroke delivery. The difference in her pocketing balls via guesswork, compared to my explicit instructions, was stark. She laughed a lot that day.

duckie · Nov 5, 2019

So, how do you instruct someone to be consistent?

It’s consistency that is key in pool.

BC21 · Nov 5, 2019

duckie said:
So, how do you instruct someone to be consistent?

It’s consistency that is key in pool.

I agree. And that's not something one learns from instruction. Consistency comes from practice, from repetition, from playing and experience.

But when you set up a few shots and the beginning student only pockets about 5 or 6 out of 30 using one particular aiming method, then set up a few more shots but instruct the student on where to aim and they pocket 15 or 18 out of 30, that's proof that one method can provide more consistency than another. Especially when you repeat the experiment 2 or 3 times with different shots and still get the same results.

Patrick Johnson · Nov 5, 2019

BC21 said:
The results proved (without a doubt) that with or without a consistent cue delivery there is more success pocketing balls when the aim line is known and not guessed or estimated.

That's never been up for debate with me.

The problem is that, for the vast majority of shots, the aim line can't be "known". There just aren't enough visible landmarks on the balls.

pj
chgo

BC21 · Nov 5, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
That's never been up for debate with me.

The problem is that, for the vast majority of shots, the aim line can't be "known". There just aren't enough visible landmarks on the balls.

pj
chgo

With practice and experience it's really not difficult to accurately determine a known aim line referencing the ob. Spacial skills develop quickly and easily, like cutting a pie or slicing up a pizza in equal pieces by just looking at it.

Patrick Johnson · Nov 5, 2019

BC21 said:
With practice and experience it's really not difficult to accurately estimate a known aim line referencing the ob. Spacial skills develop quickly and easily, like cutting a pie or slicing up a pizza in equal pieces by just looking at it.

That's how I'd say it.

pj
chgo

BC21 · Nov 5, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
That's how I'd say it.

pj
chgo

Lol. True enough. But experienced estimations can be very precise.

I'm not talking about estimating how to aim a shot where the line of aim is unknown. That's an entirely different type of estimate or judgment. I'm referring to a known line of aim, like if I asked you to shoot the cb straight at the center of the ob, or to the edge of the object ball, or halfway between those two points. Only one of these spots can be considered objective/well defined -- the edge of the ball. The center or quarter or any other fractional slice is subjective and requires good spacial skills to be able to accurately visualize those divisions on the ball. Practice and experience helps.

If you have trouble looking at a simple object or shape (like a square or a rectangle or circle) and visualizing a vertical line down the center, then you have poor spacial skills and would not do well in anything that requires good spacial skills.

JoeyInCali · Nov 5, 2019

Dan White said:
I always had a pool table in the house. My earliest memory was standing at opposite sides of the table from my brothers. We would wing balls down the table at each other (on the table surface) trying to hit each other's hands. I also recall watching my father play while images from Vietnam were on the TV.

There seem to be two basic camps - those who go through a particular aiming process such as aiming the shaft a particular way and measuring certain offsets, and those who simply "see" the shot and hit it.

I've always been more of a "hit it when it looks right" player and I grew up around pool. I can't remember my earliest days of playing but the thought occurred to me that those who learn at a young age might be less prone to using well defined aiming methods, and less able to understand why people use them at all.

Am I in the woods on this one?

https://youtu.be/AF3sPBqOtNA?t=31
Here's a kid who just looks at the contact point and hitting it.
You can eve see him line it up.

The good ones just know how to hit it .

CocoboloCowboy · Nov 5, 2019

Learning to do anything well, and become a constant ant winner is not easy.

If it was anyone could go to some sporting good store, and buy a set of Golf Clubs, and play like Tiger, or Phil.

Most people who are great at anything, put a lot of effort, and time into the thing they are great at.

Babe Ruth was the home run king, but he also struck out a lot.

JoeyInCali · Nov 5, 2019

CocoboloCowboy said:
Learning to do anything well, and become a constant ant winner is not easy.

If it was anyone could go to some sporting good store, and buy a set of Golf Clubs, and play like Tiger, or Phil.

Most people who are great at anything, put a lot of effort, and time into the thing they are great at.

Babe Ruth was the home run king, but he also struck out a lot.

You haven't met this guy who's been hyping an aiming system for almost 20 years.
It's made his game worse.

cookie man · Nov 5, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
You haven't met this guy who's been hyping an aiming system for almost 20 years.
It's made his game worse.

And who would that be and which aiming system?

Learning to Aim - Child vs Adult

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

AzB Gold Member

BondFanEvents.com

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

www.jbcases.com

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

GregH

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

Fish of the Day

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

Fish of the Day

https://www.playpoolbetter.com

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

Cowboys are my hero's

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

AzB Silver Member