APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

erhino41 said:

To be certain, from the start, I do believe the actual players involved when they say that their intentions were good from the get go and through all of their competitions. By the letter of the rule you were in the wrong, even though it was no fault of your own.

The apa has a major handicap manipulation problem. You could say they are fighting a war against it, that is the actual scale of it. I can't tell you the number of nonchalant conversations I have heard about keeping innings up and keeping handicap levels where they are. So many that it seems some don't even recognize this as sandbagging. Now there are also a lot of teams that assuredly know that this is against the rules, but the risk is worth the reward to them.

It really seems you guys were an innocent casualty of a war that must be fought. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I do hope something good comes of this and maybe a lot of open communicating may ease some of the damage done.

It's a private organization and everything done is on their terms. They care more about seeming tough on sandbaggers than they do about seeming unfair, as much as that sucks.

Image is the biggest thing here. I think you did yourselves no favors by live streaming all of your matches. Not to say it was wrong, as I have already started I believe it was all in good faith. Perception and publicity are two very, very important things to a company.

When you have a team stepping up to the challenge and beating teams, fair and square, that aren't, those teams tend to want to blame everyone but themselves. So when you have, say, seven teams that you beat running around the room whining about how your 2 plays like a 3 and your 4 plays like a 5 and so on and so forth, that gets a bit of attention. Now couple with all that buzz a live stream on which you noted comments about players appearing to be better than they are, even if the judgement is biased and untrue, you have, in their eyes, a bit of a fire to put out.

They would rather your team go home sore than have the lingering buzz be about the team that maybe even won the event, who knows, being sandbaggers and nothing was done about it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

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WillyCornbread said:

I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b

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WillyCornbread said:

I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b

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WillyCornbread said:

I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b

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Tony_in_MD said:

This statement is eyeopening.

If they thought you weren't cheating, what was the basis for their ruling?

(if it was covered before I missed it)

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Tony_in_MD said:

This statement is eyeopening.

If they thought you weren't cheating, what was the basis for their ruling?

(if it was covered before I missed it)

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jokrswylde said:

It is against the rules to have 5 members of the same team all "rank up" during a tourney...regardless if sandbagging occurs or not.

Kind of like how you can "fail" a drug test for a diluted sample, even if all you've done is drink plenty of water.

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Shorty said:

In 2009, in the 9 ball team championships...my team played a team out of Chicago. Nobody spoke English but 1 guy. The rest were Czechs. Our 3 comes out and gets drilled 18-2. I am up next, kind of the juggernaut of the team. I am getting DRUMMED 30+ to 4 when the guy breaks his cue down and shakes my hand all of the sudden. He forfeited the match. His league operator called the team captain and told them to forfeit the rest of the matches because the so called 5 I was playing started the tournament as a 3 and he only dogged off the 9 ball twice to let me break. He was playing position like that of a 9. Apparently another player on that team had also already jumped two skill levels and their league operator was about to lose a tournament slot. It was the strangest thing, but we were honestly happy to take an early evening and get some rest for the next morning. It put us in position to take 9th out of over 450 teams. We lost the next morning to a team from Louisiana.

So yeah, APA sucks...but it gets me out of the house to bang balls for 8 bucks a night.

Shorty

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WillyCornbread said:

To clarify my last post, I was saying that they stated the suspension was automatic along with the DQ for the five going up...

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Shorty said:

The point is, his local league operator should of not let that team go to Vegas, or adjusted handicaps before they went. It sucks for all the teams they mowed over before us.

Shorty

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Shawn Armstrong said:

With 5 of 8 going up at a national event, I’d be happy with a 2 year suspension. One team locally received a lifetime ban from the APA.

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sfleinen said:

What this post and discussion is supposed to do is enlighten people that we are NOT sandbaggers.

-Sean

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sfleinen said:

I don't normally respond to troll posts, but I'll bite on this one, even with its "buh-bye" nastiness. Exactly what "rule" did the team break?

-Sean

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WillyCornbread said:

5 of 7, didn't have an eighth or this might not have even happened. I find your hardline surprising, if the APA chooses to treat their entire membership base as criminals or cheaters so be it, I don't however believe they do. I think they are fighting an uphill battle against sandbaggers and cheaters, and the system is setup to catch and get rid of them - but to believe it doesn't ever catch honest people would be naive (they themselves state is as the difference between cheating and an 'unfair advantage')

Suspend me then for two years as the captain, but I think when doling out such harsh judgements perhaps some consideration and further review than 15 minutes is warranted.

Why is it so hard to believe that 5/7 people played a single skill level up, on easier equipment but under great pressure? Is that so far fetched in the APA?

If you believe we cheated, fine. But if you don't, I think you're just being a hardass demanding a suspension.

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Shawn Armstrong said:

My hardline stance has to do with your disregard for your team. I’ve captained many teams. I’ve never had a team suspended or booted. You had a document in your hand that would have solved the problem. You chose to disregard it. If you had declared your bubble players as one higher rank, you’d have had no issue. The first round in Vegas is a freebie. You win, you keep playing. You lose, you keep playing. By declaring some players one up, you’d have avoided the 2 year suspension. All for a few strokes of a pen. If I shoot s gun into the air, and the bullet hits someone, I’m responsible. Intent is irrelevant. Having 5 of 7 players bumped at Vegas is the first I’ve heard of more than 70% of a roster moving up.

Do I think you did anything intentional? No. But you did a disservice to other teams with fair and established rankings.

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WillyCornbread said:

Yes, anyone who knows me knows how little regard I have for the team. We're beating a dead horse here, I appreciate your opinion but we'll never agree on the idea that as a captain with honest players and scorekeeping I should still disregard the worlds best handicapping system, assume my first time national players will play lights out under the pressure and manually enter the number that the APA couldn't come up with on their own.

Agree to disagree or not, I didn't start the thread just wanted to clarify some of the facts and dispute a few others. We'll see how it plays out from here without much further comment from me.

Thanks,

b

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pogmothoin said:

While I have no clue what happened in this specific instance it doesn't surprise me that the handicaps were out of whack. While it was alluded to before, to me this is an issue that speaks to the very foundation of how the APA rates players.

They hold a national tournament where players from how many separate APA leagues compete? The APA has a national tournament with locally rated players. Recipe for the endless claims of sandbaggers and cheaters.

Bottom line to me the APA rating is NOT a national rating so this type of thing will always be an issue.

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