*** Who of the TOP 6 Players in USA are the Most Defensive ***

Who YOU think is the MOST Defensive Player of the TOP 6 in the USA?

  • 1. Pedro Piedrabuena

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • 2. Hugo Patino

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3. Mazin Shooni

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • 4. Sonny Cho

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 5. Miguel Torres

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6. Michael Kang

    Votes: 3 37.5%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
Out of the TOP 6 Ranked players in the USA, who do YOU feel is the MOST Defensive player?

1.Pedro Piedrabuena

2.Hugo Patino

3.Mazin Shooni

4.Sonny Cho

5.Miguel Torres

6.Michael Kang





Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
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zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Fast Eddie,

Evidently...Mr 2 Cushion has never played against Gary Scharf!
 

mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
Evidently, Gary never played, Gene Johnson or Joe Diaz! :tongue:

Bill Smith "Mr3 Cushion"
 

Bert van Manen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Amusing as the poll subject is, it will have to do without my vote, because: a) I like these excellent players and have played against all of them in a fine atmosphere, and b) calling someone "the most defensive" can hardly be considered a compliment. It just means: he does not have his game priorities straight, plays a tactically immature game.
"The importance of defense in 3-cushion is highest when the quality of play is lowest".
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bert...20-better-player-than-you-are/537313689640325
 

mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
Amusing as the poll subject is, it will have to do without my vote, because: a) I like these excellent players and have played against all of them in a fine atmosphere, and b) calling someone "the most defensive" can hardly be considered a compliment. It just means: he does not have his game priorities straight, plays a tactically immature game.
"The importance of defense in 3-cushion is highest when the quality of play is lowest".
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bert...20-better-player-than-you-are/537313689640325

Interesting reply, Bert.

EVERY aspect of a 3 cushion game has a certain time to, "charge" ahead or to "retreat" or to take advantage of a better position. Certain positions at the table afford both opportunities at times, when a player decides to choose which one to utilize will determine that players, "style" of game.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
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Hector3cushion

Hector
Silver Member
Interesting reply, Bert.

EVERY aspect of a 3 cushion game has a certain time to, "charge" ahead or to "retreat" or to take advantage of a better position. Certain positions at the table afford both opportunities at times, when a player decides to choose which one to utilize will determine that players, "style" of game.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

totally agree. and since this is a relative poll it does not mean the player plays defensively.
 

Bert van Manen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course. True. There is a correct time for attack and defense in every match, depending on position, scoreline and momentum. Sometimes playing a defensive shot is the only sane thing to do. But point me towards 2 players who have never reached their full potential because they were "too attacking", and I will show you 2 dozen who have shot themselves in the foot by looking for safety on every shot. For decades.
 

iralee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Amusing as the poll subject is, it will have to do without my vote, because: a) I like these excellent players and have played against all of them in a fine atmosphere, and b) calling someone "the most defensive" can hardly be considered a compliment. It just means: he does not have his game priorities straight, plays a tactically immature game.
"The importance of defense in 3-cushion is highest when the quality of play is lowest".
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bert...20-better-player-than-you-are/537313689640325

Bert,

Once again, I loved your articulate article and I have individually contemplated some similar notions. Just throwing out a few thoughts and ideas here to spur more conversation.

I have often noticed (after the fact) when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification. I've always felt something wrong with that mentality. We never identify a safety as being such after the point happens to score. In fact, we'd more readily compliment the good position play if a makable shot was the result. Similarly, we tend to neglect assigning proper credit for high-quality control in positions when shots fail to score. Obviously, we can't help but notice 'great' safety play - when a player misses.

It's a good bet that a player that is actively hedging their misses ON EVERY SINGLE SHOT, is routinely making less-than-optimal choices (for the speed/spin/line) that will maximize their chance of scoring. They are most likely ignorant on how - I think this is what you were alluding to when you said 'tactically immature'.

Are the traditional ideas about 'position play' for the 99% of us in 3-cushion overstated?

When we consciously decide to play defensively, our concern is that, if left to chance, the likely outcome will be an open shot: an easily makable position. We tend to know where the difficult positions lay, and we try to leave them for our opponents to tackle. We'll go through great lengths to hand the table over with a familiar array of parameters that constitute undesirable leaves (e.g. easy to the red with no face to bank at, long distance, frozen balls, diagonal corner layouts, etc).

Why doesn't this idea apply similarly in our thinking when it comes to looking ahead toward our own leaves? Too many times we anticipate an easy leave only to be faced with, after the final roll of the balls, an ugly shot that requires a lot more than was bargained for. It's delusional for most of us to think they can control the exact positions for 3c leaves (unless your last name is Caudron). I don't think it is a stretch to say that even very general leaves are extremely difficult to achieve when attempting the control of all three balls.

In the interest of spending our playing energy wisely, perhaps the lowest hanging fruit in 'playing position', is less about looking for specific configurations, and more about avoiding difficult leaves. Doing so entails taking chances and trusting that all of the open shots we feared we might expose for our opponents, are the same open shots we can expect will manifest for ourselves to capitalize on. We only need to take a little extra caution against leaving for ourselves that familiar array of difficult leaves we wished upon our opponents.

We may then take additional care to keep our cue ball nearby the other balls, so that the task of ballstriking becomes naturally be less taxing. If the other ball happens to be the red, AND the opponents cue ball happens to be frozen to the rail 10 feet away AND you happen to miss - then we can just call it a difficult shot for the other guy rather than celebrating such a 'well-played safety'.

Maybe we can then put all of our focus on developing our shotmaking repertoire and expanding our degrees of freedom to the point where we are comfortable manipulating our way out of any number of variations that the table may throw our way.

All that said, I still love to witness an aggressive, safety-laden battle - where the solutions are strong and nothing is ever given away.

-Ira
 
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Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bert,

Once again, I loved your articulate article and I have individually contemplated some similar notions.

I have often noticed (after the fact) when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification. To be a great safety player isn't a goal I want to aspire to. We often don't identify a safety as being such after the point happens to score - in which case we'd more readily attribute good position play if a makable shot was the result. Similarly, we tend to neglect assigning proper credit for high-quality control in positions when shots fail to score. Obviously, we can't help but notice 'great' safety play - when a player misses.

It's a good bet that a player that is actively hedging their misses ON EVERY SINGLE SHOT, is routinely making less-than-optimal choices (for the speed/spin/line) that will maximize their chance of scoring. They are most likely ignorant on how - I think this is what you were alluding to when you said 'tactically immature'.

I've often thought: Is the idea of 'position play' for the 99% of us in 3-cushion overstated?

When we consciously decide to play defensively, our concern is that, if left to chance, the likely outcome will be an open shot: an easily makable position. We tend to know where the difficult positions lay, and we try to leave them for our opponents to tackle. We'll go through great lengths to hand the table over with a familiar array of parameters that constitute undesirable leaves (e.g. easy to the red with no face to bank at, long distance, frozen balls, diagonal corner layouts, etc).

Why doesn't this idea apply at all in our thinking when it comes to looking ahead to our own leaves? Too many times we anticipate an easy leave only to be faced with, after the final roll of the balls, an ugly shot that requires a lot more than was bargained for. It's delusional for most of us to think they can control the exact positions for 3c leaves (unless your last name is Caudron). I don't think it is a stretch to say that even general leaves are easy to achieve when attempting the control of all three balls.

In the interest of spending our playing energies wisely, perhaps the lowest hanging fruit in 'playing position', is less about looking for specific configurations, and more about avoiding that familiar array of difficult leaves we wished upon opponents, for ourselves. Doing so means that taking chances and trusting that all of the open shots we feared we might leave our opponents, are the same open shots we can expect to manifest for ourselves.

We may then take additional care to keep our cue ball nearby the other balls, so that the task of ballstriking becomes naturally be less taxing. If the other ball happens to be the red, AND the opponents cue ball happens to be frozen to the rail 10 feet away AND you happen to miss - then we can just call it a difficult shot for the other guy rather than celebrating such a 'well-played safety'.

Maybe we can then put all of our focus on developing our shotmaking repertoire and expanding our degrees of freedom to the point where we are comfortable manipulating our way out of any number of variations that the table may throw our way.

All that said, I still love to witness an aggressive, safety-laden battle - where the solutions are strong and nothing is ever given away.

-Ira

i'd like to complement you on a very written opinion. i love 3C and agree. I'm not very good, i can run 4 once in a blue moon, i'm a pool player who appreciates 3C and enjoys watching it.

I will add now that i'm 46, my interest in 3C is picking up considerably. However i have appericated it since the first time I watched and played it, beautiful game. that was 28 years ago

thank you

Eric Petersen:smile:


PS: i also like the 3C community and respect shown in the game, its not perfect but better than pool. were cowboys in that world. Also because i played pool for so many years I do come with some VERY unconventional shots, that 3C players dont see. I have been told this many times, of course the natural shots i mite only see 15% of them laying there. I have played Mike Massey the most, always good fun.
 
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mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
Bert,

Once again, I loved your articulate article and I have individually contemplated some similar notions. Just throwing out a few thoughts and ideas here to spur more conversation.

I have often noticed (after the fact) when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification. I've always felt something wrong with that mentality. We never identify a safety as being such after the point happens to score. In fact, we'd more readily compliment the good position play if a makable shot was the result. Similarly, we tend to neglect assigning proper credit for high-quality control in positions when shots fail to score. Obviously, we can't help but notice 'great' safety play - when a player misses.

It's a good bet that a player that is actively hedging their misses ON EVERY SINGLE SHOT, is routinely making less-than-optimal choices (for the speed/spin/line) that will maximize their chance of scoring. They are most likely ignorant on how - I think this is what you were alluding to when you said 'tactically immature'.

Are the traditional ideas about 'position play' for the 99% of us in 3-cushion overstated?

When we consciously decide to play defensively, our concern is that, if left to chance, the likely outcome will be an open shot: an easily makable position. We tend to know where the difficult positions lay, and we try to leave them for our opponents to tackle. We'll go through great lengths to hand the table over with a familiar array of parameters that constitute undesirable leaves (e.g. easy to the red with no face to bank at, long distance, frozen balls, diagonal corner layouts, etc).

Why doesn't this idea apply similarly in our thinking when it comes to looking ahead toward our own leaves? Too many times we anticipate an easy leave only to be faced with, after the final roll of the balls, an ugly shot that requires a lot more than was bargained for. It's delusional for most of us to think they can control the exact positions for 3c leaves (unless your last name is Caudron). I don't think it is a stretch to say that even very general leaves are extremely difficult to achieve when attempting the control of all three balls.

In the interest of spending our playing energy wisely, perhaps the lowest hanging fruit in 'playing position', is less about looking for specific configurations, and more about avoiding difficult leaves. Doing so entails taking chances and trusting that all of the open shots we feared we might expose for our opponents, are the same open shots we can expect will manifest for ourselves to capitalize on. We only need to take a little extra caution against leaving for ourselves that familiar array of difficult leaves we wished upon our opponents.

We may then take additional care to keep our cue ball nearby the other balls, so that the task of ballstriking becomes naturally be less taxing. If the other ball happens to be the red, AND the opponents cue ball happens to be frozen to the rail 10 feet away AND you happen to miss - then we can just call it a difficult shot for the other guy rather than celebrating such a 'well-played safety'.

Maybe we can then put all of our focus on developing our shotmaking repertoire and expanding our degrees of freedom to the point where we are comfortable manipulating our way out of any number of variations that the table may throw our way.

All that said, I still love to witness an aggressive, safety-laden battle - where the solutions are strong and nothing is ever given away.

-Ira

Ira; This is an excerpt form my Book/DVD, "The Concise Book of Position Play," this is MY theory on position play!

My Theory on Position Play

I‘d like to say firstly, that, “scoring the point is paramount." how you score that point is what this book is all about. No two players approach the same position with exactly the same solution, but, the end result will be similar in concept. One player may decide to create a 3 cushion position and another player a 5 cushion position shot.

When I decided to go from being a shot maker and I was a pretty good at that to a position oriented thinker, it was because I got tired of always trying to make something from nothing. This can ruin your confidence. It’s like a nine ball player who always has to make tough shots because they got out of line on every shot.

When playing position in billiards you must first know the conditions of the table, is it long, short? The player needs to play to the natural conditions of the table; don’t fight the table’s characteristics. If the table plays short, look for position shots that will be helped by those conditions. If a table plays long, play shots that compliment that tendency. Then 4 and 5 cushion position shots can offer many opportunities for series of billiards. Personally, I prefer a short table because an opponent’s safety play is less effective.

The types of position shots a player decides to choose will reflect their ability and knowledge of the game. Knowing how to control all three balls makes billiards a far easier game. When I approach a shot attempting to play position, I look at the shot backwards. Can I position the 1st object ball in a "High Percentage Zone or Lane," what kind of hit, English and stroke technique is required to score and achieve position for the next shot? This is my thought process for the start of playing position.

It’s just common sense. You can’t play position on every shot, believe me, I’ve tried. But, what you can do is take advantage of certain positions when they arise. Playing position is an individual theory and practice for most advanced players. They all have to share the same fundamental aspects that they apply to achieve the end result, making a difficult game much more manageable.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 

iralee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ira; This is an excerpt form my Book/DVD, "The Concise Book of Position Play," this is MY theory on position play!


Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"[/SIZE]

Thanks for sharing your excerpt on position play.
I especially appreciate what you said about not fighting the natural characteristics of the table. It is true.

-Ira
 

Bert van Manen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ira:
We're on the same page, obviously. And, you are without a shadow of a doubt, the first human being ever to write down this sentence:
"... when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification."
Pulitzer material, that :)
 

iralee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ira:
We're on the same page, obviously. And, you are without a shadow of a doubt, the first human being ever to write down this sentence:
"... when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification."
Pulitzer material, that :)

lol.

Just don't quote me without including the followup sentence: "I've always felt something wrong with that mentality."

-Ira
 

Hector3cushion

Hector
Silver Member
Wall St

Ira:
We're on the same page, obviously. And, you are without a shadow of a doubt, the first human being ever to write down this sentence:
"... when I scored points using a 'small-ball' approach, that I would rationalize the suboptimal scoring tactic with the 'defensive hedge' justification."
Pulitzer material, that :)

That sentence is the result of working in Wall St.:grin-square:
 

fasteddief

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Safety

Hey Zensteve,Gary Scharf played Sang Lee in a Tournament and the score was tied at 18 to 18 in a 25 point match. Gary is around 750 player, but his shot selections is around 300 player because he won't even shoot a natural unless there is a safety built in. By the way Sang Lee ran 7 and out to win the game but he could feel the pressure of never having an easy shot.He is by far the best safety player in the WORLD.
 

zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Welcome to my world! I play him at our private club leagues every week. If I'm not on the rail 10ft away I figure he's dumping.
 

sightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Amusing as the poll subject is, it will have to do without my vote, because: a) I like these excellent players and have played against all of them in a fine atmosphere, and b) calling someone "the most defensive" can hardly be considered a compliment. It just means: he does not have his game priorities straight, plays a tactically immature game.
"The importance of defense in 3-cushion is highest when the quality of play is lowest".
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bert...20-better-player-than-you-are/537313689640325

True and so true...
 

iralee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Zensteve,Gary Scharf played Sang Lee in a Tournament and the score was tied at 18 to 18 in a 25 point match. Gary is around 750 player, but his shot selections is around 300 player because he won't even shoot a natural unless there is a safety built in. By the way Sang Lee ran 7 and out to win the game but he could feel the pressure of never having an easy shot.He is by far the best safety player in the WORLD.

Take it from me...back in the day, trying to play safe on Sang Lee was, for sure, a losing strategy. Anyone who played Sang enough times quickly realized that giving him more innings at the table didn't particularly help their own cause... He knew every kind of bank or umbrella to break your every safety, turn it into a short angle, and before you could say 'ticky', he'd be off to the races with another 7 to 10 points. He would pound a few of these series consecutively until the next time you looked up at the beads the score was like 35-3 in like 4 innings and suddenly all of the big balls appear as little marbles to you...

-Ira
 

zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ira,

I appreciate your statement regarding Sang Lee. And I understand players at his level have a knack of getting out of jail. You commented that playing defensive is not a good strategy. At first blush everyone would agree with what you said. But that begs the question; "Therefore what?" I trust you're not suggesting we leave Sang Lee a natural to start his inning? I would submit that given all the fruitless options one has when playing someone of Sang's level...what strategy should one employ?

a.Just go toe to toe? Don't like this option
b.forfeit the match cause ya can't win This option does not work for me
c.Put him in jail, hope you catch a few gears, and hope to steal a win

Naturally there are more options than these three. But you are the one that pooh poohed the defense strategy. What is your strategy?
.
 
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