How to ship a cue with ivory

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am selling a JW cue that has ivory diamonds, joint and ferrules (it's all pre-ban ivory). Will I have a problem shipping this cue out of California and what is the best carrier to do this with? What about shipping overseas? Can I use USPS Priority Mail or will there be a problem? Any help with this is greatly appreciated. It's a valuable cue and I don't want to lose it.

a) get legal advice from an actual qualified attorney, rather than on azbilliards

b) follow said legal advice.

I'm sure ignoring the law and devising ways to get away with it is done lots of times without a problem. But this is one of those things that isn't a problem. Until it IS a problem. None of the guys giving you ways to get away with it are going to have their lives disrupted if you do something illegal and get caught. But yours will be.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ernie was an international viiolation....everyone knows domestic is different

I live in CA and still have close communications with CA Fish & Wildlife
on trying to obtain the 1st CITES exemption issued for a pool cue in CA.

This is Jay's money and butt at risk....if you want to do the sale legally, there
is only one solitary way. There isn't any other option that is "risk free" and Jay
can do as he likes but I'm giving him factual information, not an opinion as so
many others have posted. This is Jay's decision but at least base it upon facts.

Jay, when you are physically outside the geographical boundaries of California,
such as being across the state line in Nevada, you can transact business. But
the transaction has to be fully consummated outside of California, not just the
shipment of the cue to the buyer. You cannot receive any payment for the cue
while you are in California either. If you surrender the cue to the buyer or ship
it, as long as you are outside California, you are safe and in compliance. The
buyer's payment may be deposited by you in your bank account as long as the
actual payment was not received within the jurisdiction of California. It is viewed
to be a trailing event to a legally enacted sale by CA Fish & Wildlife so it is not in
dispute or question. Even if you never deposited the payment, the buyer would still
legally own the cue so CA Fish & Wildlife isn'tconcerned about payments outside CA.

The Federal law is distinctly different and has exemptions that do not exist within the
California ivory ban. Jay, whatever you decide, just be deliberate and careful and do
not openly discuss this topic on this Forum or anywhere else when you intend to sell
a cue containing any ivory and happen to reside in California......that's just my advice.


Matt B.
 

Runner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay, I wouldn't ship the cue. There's too many things that can go wrong, the ivory problem, shipping employee thefts, damage, etc.

In another thread I mentioned a friend who sent a vintage Joss butt to get re-wrapped,
he never saw it again.. his daily player, gone. Yeah, it was insured, but that's not the point.

With your connections, just put out the word and sell person to person. If it's a monster cue, let 'em come to you to buy it.
 

Ron Padilla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lots of good advice about not taking advice from people here, just take a trip and mosey on up to Vegas.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Ernie was an international viiolation....everyone knows domestic is different

I live in CA and still have close communications with CA Fish & Wildlife
on trying to obtain the 1st CITES exemption issued for a pool cue in CA.

This is Jay's money and butt at risk....if you want to do the sale legally, there
is only one solitary way. There isn't any other option that is "risk free" and Jay
can do as he likes but I'm giving him factual information, not an opinion as so
many others have posted. This is Jay's decision but at least base it upon facts.

Jay, when you are physically outside the geographical boundaries of California,
such as being across the state line in Nevada, you can transact business. But
the transaction has to be fully consummated outside of California, not just the
shipment of the cue to the buyer. You cannot receive any payment for the cue
while you are in California either. If you surrender the cue to the buyer or ship
it, as long as you are outside California, you are safe and in compliance. The
buyer's payment may be deposited by you in your bank account as long as the
actual payment was not received within the jurisdiction of California. It is viewed
to be a trailing event to a legally enacted sale by CA Fish & Wildlife so it is not in
dispute or question. Even if you never deposited the payment, the buyer would still
legally own the cue so CA Fish & Wildlife isn'tconcerned about payments outside CA.

The Federal law is distinctly different and has exemptions that do not exist within the
California ivory ban. Jay, whatever you decide, just be deliberate and careful and do
not openly discuss this topic on this Forum or anywhere else when you intend to sell
a cue containing any ivory and happen to reside in California......that's just my advice.


Matt B.

This is correct, looking into it California has not adopted the di minimis exemption yet. So if State officials became involved, it might be an issue.
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
So, to get this straight, California has a problem with ivory, but does not have a problem with urinating and defecating in public, ala San Francisco. Sounds like a mismatch of priorities.

All the best,
WW
 

jazznpool

Superior Cues--Unchalked!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I am selling a JW cue that has ivory diamonds, joint and ferrules (it's all pre-ban ivory). Will I have a problem shipping this cue out of California and what is the best carrier to do this with? What about shipping overseas? Can I use USPS Priority Mail or will there be a problem? Any help with this is greatly appreciated. It's a valuable cue and I don't want to lose it.

NEVER overseas. The ivory law is is California, New York, New Jersey, Washington and Alaska. NOBODY is opening up mailed packages with the possible exception of Alaska. Priority mail is superb for a properly packed item. No problems worldwide in 13 years.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay,

For sure I wouldn't send it overseas. There is some chance it will be confiscated if inspected.

There has been some relief for certain items as of 2016. There is a "de minimus" category exemption. Here is what that clause covers:

** To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet all of the following criteria:
(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item;
(iv) The ivory is not raw;
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the
ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by
volume;
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule.



Many older pool cues would fall into this category. This rule was initiated to protect items like guns with ivory handles and musical instruments, artifacts that are not exempt under the 100 year old antique clause. 200 grams is 7 ounces, and there is no way the ferrules, joint and thin inlays would come close to that.

More to follow in the next post.

For item 1:
How is a pool banger such as us, that might have an ivory cue with 10 prior owners, supposed to get the document that proves its pre-ban?

For items 3 and 5: This means no ivory pool/snooker/carom balls can be sold. This means no pool cue replacement parts, such as ferrules, inlay material, joints, etc, can be sold.

For items 6: Carom ivory balls would be excluded, but not pool/snooker ivory balls.

Answers to number 1, and are my other interpretations correct?
 

Ron Padilla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I spent most of my life there in Kali moved out 5.5 years ago, it was the best thing I could have ever done, the state is even more messed up since I left, I would be surprised they have taxed or out lawed farts yet.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I spent most of my life there in Kali moved out 5.5 years ago, it was the best thing I could have ever done, the state is even more messed up since I left, I would be surprised they have taxed or out lawed farts yet.

i think its coming under greenhouse gases.....:D
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
For item 1:
How is a pool banger such as us, that might have an ivory cue with 10 prior owners, supposed to get the document that proves its pre-ban?

For items 3 and 5: This means no ivory pool/snooker/carom balls can be sold. This means no pool cue replacement parts, such as ferrules, inlay material, joints, etc, can be sold.

For items 6: Carom ivory balls would be excluded, but not pool/snooker ivory balls.

Answers to number 1, and are my other interpretations correct?

Actually I think you are correct, but for cues, I don't think in practicality it's going to be an issue if the items were made at least 30 years ago and they have small amounts of ivory. This rule was created to protect the sellers and resale of items like this. I really don't see a conceptual difference between musical instruments, firearms and pool cues. They are each tools or implements with an aesthetic component typically embellished with ivory, but the value is in the tool itself, who made it, when it was made and not in its ivory content. Pool balls, chess pieces, statues - this is a different subject.

This di minimis exemption should elicit a sigh of relief for collectors of old cues, especially if the collector documents the cue. If I had a Tad or a Szamboti with all kinds of ivory and high value (these cues typically go for 25K - 50K or more), I would be documenting the origins, while there are still sources of information obtainable. I personally would not be in the least concerned about selling some of my old cues with minor ivory components. For example, if Jay felt some exposure or concern, he could contact Bill Stroud, ask for a letter stating when the cue was made and the source of the ivory.

Pool balls - I agree with you 100%. I would not deal in ivory balls unless they were made 100 years ago and you had some proof, like a box or something to that effect, which would then be considered an antique (which are exempt). I am not worrying about the State of California investigating my ferrules. They are still trying to figure out how to issue a federally acceptable driver's license!
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks guys for all the good responses. I have a pretty good idea of how to consummate this sale now (if it happens). My preference is to deliver it by hand, possibly in Vegas and accept cash only. This has been a learning experience for me. I have several cues with "white" content, most of them very old (60's to 80's). I'm glad I asked on here. :wink:
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Usps just started using ivory sniffing dogs at our area plant. I wouldn't do it:)

Really what plant is that ,, I work in several USPS plants in Va I’ve yet to see it but I’ll ask a inspector this week any a meeting I have where he will be


1
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Thanks guys for all the good responses. I have a pretty good idea of how to consummate this sale now (if it happens). My preference is to deliver it by hand, possibly in Vegas and accept cash only. This has been a learning experience for me. I have several cues with "white" content, most of them very old (60's to 80's). I'm glad I asked on here. :wink:

Agree, I have a bunch of cues with white stuff too, and they're never going for sale. They will be in my "cold, dead, hand..."

All the best,
WW
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Usps just started using ivory sniffing dogs at our area plant. I wouldn't do it:)

I think you misunderstood the dog’s role...

37A85DB4-A79A-4B2E-B2E2-D0ED310A4099.jpeg
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, to get this straight, California has a problem with ivory, but does not have a problem with urinating and defecating in public, ala San Francisco. Sounds like a mismatch of priorities.

All the best,
WW

Well, THAT sure helped Jay.
 
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