How I lost from here

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the moment...a place holder until I can get 'cuetable' layout to work...

I played even with a guy in 9ball league last night. I played a decent safe on the 7. Had him partially hooked (1/4 ball?) a diamond or so behind the 8. He had a table length one rail kick, but had to jump the CB. He kicked hard, the cb hit the end rail, flew, landed on the 7. 7 jumped and flew past the point and went in the side while still airborn. The CB flew around bouncing for a while, and landed good for opponent to get out.

Goes to show that good things can happen kicking hard.

This is just a recent example of 'how I lost from here'.:confused::eek:



I know(I hope) it doesn't happen just to me.....but I catch my share.. This morning I'm laughing, but last night...not as much.


....lotta hopin'


 
Last edited:

Matt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Great" shots are often the product of desperation. It's always tough when you're on the receiving end and fun when it's you pulling something off. Crazy shots like that are why you taking a risk any time you let your opponent shoot, even if you are playing the odds by doing it. In my years of playing, I have only seen a handful of defensive shots that leave an opponent absolutely no possibility of making a ball or playing safe.
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
For the moment...a place holder until I can get 'cuetable' layout to work...

I played even with a guy in 9ball league last night. I played a decent safe on the 7. Had him partially hooked (1/4 ball?) a diamond or so behind the 8. He had a table length one rail kick, but had to jump the CB. He kicked hard, the cb hit the end rail, flew, landed on the 7. 7 jumped and flew past the point and went in the side while still airborn. The CB flew around bouncing for a while, and landed good for opponent to get out.

Goes to show that good things can happen kicking hard.

This is just a recent example of 'how I lost from here'.:confused::eek:



I know(I hope) it doesn't happen just to me.....but I catch my share.. This morning I'm laughing, but last night...not as much.

Shots like this are why I hate playing safe. Executing the safety just right is no guarantee of a positive outcome for you.

-Andrew
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
It's hard to visualize the shot, specifically the jumping part... he couldn't just jump directly at the ball?
You almost never see a jump+kick.

Andrew: just recently I've decided I'm leaning the other way... I'm not safing enough. It's a percentages game.
Occasionally someone jump kicks an object ball into the side over the nipple,
and if they think that's anything but luck, ask 'em to bet even money on doing it again with 10 tries.

Somehow I've been signed up for occasional email from Tim Miller (aka The Monk... took me forever to realize there are two monks)... it was pretty interesting.
He suggests 9b is not a break and run game, and he actually baits opponents into trying tough shots.

I often have wondered how this guy plays. Always assumed he was pro-speed, but I never heard of a pro saying 9b isn't a break'n'run game. Though I think CJ has said it used to be less of one due to the 2-foul rules and less predictable breaks. The first part of his article is about how he insists on the magic rack and the game must be
treated differently vs. a "sack racker" (I dunno this term but sounds like 'slug racker' to me).

Here's part of Tim's article, do y'all agree?

==========
Nine ball is not a break and run game. You have to build style that suits your personality. I have recovered from my “run and gun” days. I use to go for short racks and did quite well. It was a fun way to play. Now, I try to dominate my opponent and leave him a kick shot or the rack when I am finished.


The domination game takes intelligence. You need to read the table and know when to duck. If you miss position, don’t try to hang on as a shot maker to finish your run. Play a defensive shot.


Often times when I play a safe I leave an easy kick to hit the ball. I have found better dividends if I leave my opponent a long tough shot. They will go for the tough shot. A long cut shot is very hard to make and there is little chance to control the cue ball. If he misses the shot, he normally leaves it hanging. I like my opponent to go for a tough shot rather than an easy safe.


After the opening break, if I push the cue ball, I will push it so he has a long tough shot. I never push it so he has an easy safe to play on me.


Nine ball is about strategy. You will win more games when you play smart. If you find yourself winning by lop sided scores you are playing strong and not missing shots. You are “in the game”.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was 2 9 balls that were lucked in in the M-Cup this year, SVB shot one and JA shot the other one.These are the 2 that stand out in my mind. In both case's they created their own luck. I saw the shots ahead of time for both of them, i said to Jay(i think) SVB is gonna roll the 9 real good here, it laid real good to roll hard, SVB nailed it. On JA's shot I didnt say anything, its the one where i ran up to him-the only time i jumped up and went to the rail(i figured it wasnt my place to do that at the M-Cup, however on that shot it was a reaction-i watched the video on youtube)

nothing better than creating your own luck in anything in life. in the movie COM they said "Luck itself is a art"
 

tuda

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
luck

There is no such thing as a missed shot.. only one you didn't hit hard enough.
 

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No he couldn't

CreeDo;4179460[B said:
]It's hard to visualize the shot, specifically the jumping part... he couldn't just jump directly at the ball?
You almost never see a jump+kick.
[/B]

............

He could not jump directly at ball(7).

I had left the CB partially hooked behind the 8 at one end, and the 9 at the other end was blocking the 7. 9 just above the spot, the 7 about 6 inches behind. All balls were nearly lined up straight. A little angle...but not much.

So, he jumped the 8, and after a couple of mini bounces, bounced the CB off the far rail, bounce-kick into the hidden 7ball, and made the 7 in the side-and then got out. A lot of flying bouncing balls, jumping, kicking etc. A real circus shot. Kinda glad I got to see it....except for the losing part.

It was a doosey.:eek:
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
It's hard to visualize the shot, specifically the jumping part... he couldn't just jump directly at the ball?
You almost never see a jump+kick.

Andrew: just recently I've decided I'm leaning the other way... I'm not safing enough. It's a percentages game.
Occasionally someone jump kicks an object ball into the side over the nipple,
and if they think that's anything but luck, ask 'em to bet even money on doing it again with 10 tries.

Somehow I've been signed up for occasional email from Tim Miller (aka The Monk... took me forever to realize there are two monks)... it was pretty interesting.
He suggests 9b is not a break and run game, and he actually baits opponents into trying tough shots.

I often have wondered how this guy plays. Always assumed he was pro-speed, but I never heard of a pro saying 9b isn't a break'n'run game. Though I think CJ has said it used to be less of one due to the 2-foul rules and less predictable breaks. The first part of his article is about how he insists on the magic rack and the game must be
treated differently vs. a "sack racker" (I dunno this term but sounds like 'slug racker' to me).

Here's part of Tim's article, do y'all agree?

==========

I don't agree, if you're playing a high level of competition. 9-ball is absolutely a break and run game every time you break well enough that you can run out. Safeties are a second chance to win a rack you have failed to run out. You get out of position such that the run is no longer feasible, and thus you have failed your first opportunity to win, so you play a safety hoping that if it's good enough you'll get a second opportunity to win. But you won't always, and it pays to remember that.

A 50% shot where if you make it you win is better than an 80% safe if the opponent has a 50% chance to kick the ball in and win from there.

-Andrew
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I don't agree, if you're playing a high level of competition.
9-ball is absolutely a break and run game every time you break well enough that you can run out.


Ok, but how do you define high level? Would you call our level of play high level?
I wish I could label it that, but the truth is, even a decent B player is 50/50 to get out of an open 9 ball rack,
with zero clusters and ball in hand to start. And I think a lot of B players walk around not realizing that. I know I didn't.

There are some eye opening stats from accustats about this -
How often do you think a pro runs out with ball in hand after the break? The stats show only 65-70%.
Take away the ball in hand and play without a magic rack or perfect equipment
and getting a break'n'run is like a 10% proposition for guys like us.

So why would your primary gameplan to do something you will fail 90% of the time?

I think that was the point he was driving at... for non-pro players (all speeds up to short stop)...
break'n'run is a poor strategy. It's an ok strategy for the small percentage of players who can pull it off.
For the rest of us, a much better tactic is to look for a safety the instant we get even halfway shitty
position on a ball. Or maybe to just look for an easy safe halfway through the run, then plan
to sink a few balls and then get shape on that safety.

A 50% shot where if you make it you win is better than an 80% safe if the opponent has a 50% chance to kick the ball in and win from there.

You're too smart to say "there are two possible outcomes, he either makes the kick or he doesn't.
Therefore the odds of him kicking in this ball are 50%" :)
Kicking in a ball is like 10% at best and that's only if they have to skill to hit the ball every time.

I think the safety math looks more like this for normal players who are not top pros:

If I hit the safe well I'm:

95% to get back to the table
•40% they get a good hit but sell out a makeable shot.
•30% they get a good hit and safe me afterwards
•15% they get a good hit and sell out an easy shot
•5% they don't get a good hit
(And 5% is generous, that's some very strong kicking.)

5% the opponent kicks a ball in
• 2% they kick it in and have a makeable shot
• 1.5% they kick it in and have a an easy shot
• 1.5% they kick it in and are hooked
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
Ok, but how do you define high level? Would you call our level of play high level?

Borderline. Depends which game we have that day. Last night I was a high level player.

So why would your primary gameplan to do something you will fail 90% of the time?

I think that was the point he was driving at... for non-pro players (all speeds up to short stop)...
break'n'run is a poor strategy. It's an ok strategy for the small percentage of players who can pull it off.
For the rest of us, a much better tactic is to look for a safety the instant we get even halfway shitty
position on a ball. Or maybe to just look for an easy safe halfway through the run, then plan
to sink a few balls and then get shape on that safety.

Sorry to put it bluntly, but that's a terrible strategy. You've got 2 ways to win every time you're at the table; 1 is get out, and 2 is don't get out but via either safety play or poor play by your opponent or sheer luck you get back to the table, and then get out. When you execute method 1 correctly, it is unbeatable. The opponent, whether he Efren or Shane or you, can do literally nothing about it. The idea of intentionally taking method 1 off the table is ludicrous.

Now, maybe it only works 10% of the time, from the break. From a good shot on the 1 ball after the break, it's higher than 10. From a good shot on the 2 ball after pocketing the 1, it's higher still. It gets higher and higher as the rack goes on, until I make a significant mistake. From good shape on the 5, I bet I'm 75%, if I'm in stroke. If I have a shot on the low ball and no clusters or realistic ways to break the clusters, you better believe I'm going to try to run some balls and get myself to the portion of the rack where I'm a near certainty to get out. I'd be an idiot not to.

But the 90% of racks I where I break but don't run out, just because my intention is to run out doesn't mean I don't end up playing safe. I don't get a shot on the 1 off the break, I play safe. I have a shot on the low ball but there are clusters and I don't think I can break them out and get out, so I choose a safety to play towards. I have an open layout but I play bad position and don't get where I have a decent shot to make the low ball and get back in line, so I play safe. I just don't do it if I'm on a reasonable shot with a potential runout behind it.

You're too smart to say "there are two possible outcomes, he either makes the kick or he doesn't.
Therefore the odds of him kicking in this ball are 50%" :)

Which is why I didn't say that.

What I was getting at was math like this:

Taking the 50% shot: 50% win
*40% I make the ball and then run out.
*10% I miss the ball but he doesn't run out and I win.
*10% I make the ball but don't run out and he wins.
*40% I miss the ball and he wins from there.

Playing the 60% safe: 40% win
*30% I execute the safety and win from there
*10% I miss the safety but he plays badly and I win
*5% I execute the safety but he kicks a ball in and wins from there
*25% I execute the safety but he kicks safe and wins from there
*30% I miss the safety and sell out the rack

-Andrew
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Sorry to put it bluntly, but that's a terrible strategy. You've got 2 ways to win every time you're at the table; 1 is get out, and 2 is don't get out but via either safety play or poor play by your opponent or sheer luck you get back to the table, and then get out.

When you lump safety play in with f*cking up and getting lucky,
you kind of make safing sound weaker than it really is :)
But of course we both do it all the time, and so do pros, so safety play isn't in that category, imo.

I could rephrase it as ...There are 2 ways to win.
1. I control the table (via runout or strong safe)
2. I lose control but get lucky anyway.

When you execute method 1 correctly, it is unbeatable. The opponent, whether he Efren or Shane or you, can do literally nothing about it. The idea of intentionally taking method 1 off the table is ludicrous.

There's the catch: "when I execute method 1 correctly."
In a 1v1 basketball game, when I shoot 3 pointers perfectly, every time I get on the floor,
then I will certainly win. But is that realistic, given my ability? No. So, sometimes I have to lay up.

Anyway, I'm not taking runouts off the table entirely. I should rephrase it.
Instead of saying "it shouldn't be your primary gameplan",
I should say "runout should be plan A, but you should be more willing to go to plan B."
We can't all be shane and miss zero balls in thirty racks.
I truly believe that if winning is your primary goal (rather than having fun, running out, or even
improving your own skills) then playing safeties instead of shooting marginal balls
will get you there.

Now, maybe it only works 10% of the time, from the break. From a good shot on the 1 ball after the break, it's higher than 10. From a good shot on the 2 ball after pocketing the 1, it's higher still. It gets higher and higher as the rack goes on, until I make a significant mistake. From good shape on the 5, I bet I'm 75%, if I'm in stroke. If I have a shot on the low ball and no clusters or realistic ways to break the clusters, you better believe I'm going to try to run some balls and get myself to the portion of the rack where I'm a near certainty to get out. I'd be an idiot not to.

This is one of those things about statistics.
If I flip tails 5 times, and I'm about to flip the sixth, what are the odds the sixth will be tails? 50%
If I haven't yet flipped 5 times, what are the odds of 6 tails in a row? < 2%.

You can't talk about running out as if the 5 is already in your rearview mirror.
We're discussing whether playing safe makes sense in the context of the
whole rack after the break, not after 5 balls are down and the rest is mopping up.

Those first 4 balls are crucial. That's when there's maximum traffic.
That's when there are millions of easy safety opportunities.
That's when you can hook yourself trying to play shape.

I just don't do it if I'm on a reasonable shot with a potential runout behind it.

Well, there's a lot of wiggle room in the word "reasonable" but I'd say if you're looking at 40%
shots and firing at them, you are costing yourself games that you could have won.
For all the times you've ducked and it hasn't worked out, there are many more times where it has.
Or at least that's how it should be if you're safing effectively.

Which is why I didn't say that.

I think we're on the same page, my nitpick was with the phrase "50% chance to kick
the ball in". Nobody's 50% to kick balls in unless they're hanging in the hole.
Guessing maybe you maybe meant get a good hit and have it work out.


What I was getting at was math like this:

Taking the 50% shot: 50% win
*40% I make the ball and then run out.
*10% I miss the ball but he doesn't run out and I win.
*10% I make the ball but don't run out and he wins.
*40% I miss the ball and he wins from there.

I'm guessing you wanted 60% win for the header...
Something like: 50% I make the shot, 10% I miss but win anyway.

I think we're actually doing different math. I'm trying to get the bullets to add up to the header.
But anyway, for your safety break down, there are some bits I disagree with.

Playing the 60% safe: 40% win
*30% I execute the safety and win from there
*10% I miss the safety but he plays badly and I win
*5% I execute the safety but he kicks a ball in and wins from there
*25% I execute the safety but he kicks safe and wins from there
*30% I miss the safety and sell out the rack

Sixty percent success rate is a bit weak for executing a successful 9b safety,
No offense. Maybe that's your actual success rate.
I bet it's higher or at least you're capable of getting it higher than that.

I'd say you should be closer to 80% to hide the cue ball from the object ball, forcing a kick.
Another 10% of the time, you don't but it's a tough shot (long, or thin, or a bank).
Only 10% of the time should your safety fail and you sell out a simple shot.
And depending on where we are in the rack, your opponent is not necessarily getting the whole rack.
You could blow safeties on the 1 all day, and if your opponent is, say, anyone at fast eddies...
you are 90% to get back to the table.

I guess all this stuff is hypothetical. I can't definitively prove on paper that playing more safeties
would help either of us. But keep an open mind... I have a feeling your win rate improves
if you stop firing at the 50%ers.
 

shotmaker45

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the moment...a place holder until I can get 'cuetable' layout to work...

I played even with a guy in 9ball league last night. I played a decent safe on the 7. Had him partially hooked (1/4 ball?) a diamond or so behind the 8. He had a table length one rail kick, but had to jump the CB. He kicked hard, the cb hit the end rail, flew, landed on the 7. 7 jumped and flew past the point and went in the side while still airborn. The CB flew around bouncing for a while, and landed good for opponent to get out.

Goes to show that good things can happen kicking hard.

This is just a recent example of 'how I lost from here'.:confused::eek:



I know(I hope) it doesn't happen just to me.....but I catch my share.. This morning I'm laughing, but last night...not as much.


you should have kicked him in the head van dam style. then scream i kick hard too mother f*cker!!!

you gotta hate getting beat like that. sorry bro
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
We're getting closer to agreeing the more we discuss this. The math, without an exhaustive study of my individual play, which I haven't tracked the data for, is quite speculative, and thus can't really be relied on to make decisions in the game. Obviously, like all players, I'm relying on what seems like the wisest choice rather than calculating odds when it comes to a game situation. I was just demonstrating some hypothetical math that could lead to a 60% safety resulting in a lower chance of winning than a 50% shot.

I could rephrase it as ...There are 2 ways to win.
1. I control the table (via runout or strong safe)
2. I lose control but get lucky anyway.

I think this is what I'm most trying to say: you don't control the table with a safety, regardless of how strong it is. You give control to your opponent, while limiting his chances of executing any shot that benefits him. But you're only limiting those chances, you're never eliminating them. When you run out, you eliminate the chance your opponent can pull out any magically good or fantastically lucky shots.

I should say "runout should be plan A, but you should be more willing to go to plan B."

More willing than what? Overly aggressive 9-ball players do exist, and for those players, you're right. But overly timid 9-ball players do exist as well, and I think some players would win more, at least after getting fully adjusted to the idea, by being less willing to abandon hope of running out. I'm not sure which category I'm in; obviously I strive to be in neither.

Sixty percent success rate is a bit weak for executing a successful 9b safety

There are safeties and there are safeties. There are many times in the course of a 9-ball tournament when I don't like my offensive opportunities, and I find myself wishing there was a safety I could see that was 60% or better to hook my opponent. There are also many times when I have a 100% safety in front of me and I'm disappointed if I don't leave him frozen to something.

-Andrew
 

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
found a layout template

How I lost from here
For the moment...a place holder until I can get 'cuetable' layout to work...

I played even with a guy in 9ball league last night. I played a decent safe on the 7. Had him partially hooked (1/4 ball?) a diamond or so behind the 8. He had a table length one rail kick, but had to jump the CB. He kicked hard, the cb hit the end rail, flew, landed on the 7. 7 jumped and flew past the point and went in the side while still airborn. The CB flew around bouncing for a while, and landed good for opponent to get out.

Goes to show that good things can happen kicking hard.

This is just a recent example of 'how I lost from here'.



I know(I hope) it doesn't happen just to me.....but I catch my share.. This morning I'm laughing, but last night...not as much.


....lotta hopin'


Last edited by 3RAILKICK; Today at 09:25 PM.. Reason: found a layout template

//updated original post
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
3rail: looking at it, I'm lost about the "he had to jump" part haha. Looks to me like a routine one rail kick that he apparently hit so hard it went airborne. Which is usually not recommended. Definitely a very unlucky roll for his opponent :)

I think this is what I'm most trying to say: you don't control the table with a safety, regardless of how strong it is. You give control to your opponent, while limiting his chances of executing any shot that benefits him. But you're only limiting those chances, you're never eliminating them. When you run out, you eliminate the chance your opponent can pull out any magically good or fantastically lucky shots.

Oh hey! This thread. Forgot about it.

Maybe just a semantics thing but a lot of people will say "so-and-so controlled the table"
if the player runs 3 balls, plays a strong safe leading to BIH, then run 6 more to win.
They don't say "he surrendered control of the table and it worked out".
I guess different definitions of control.

I see control when you have a specific goal and execute it well. Losing control is when you have a goal but then f*ck it up.
For example when you try a 50% shot and then miss, that's losing control.
Planning a good safe and executing it, I could not label that "losing control".

Would you be comfortable saying "I kept control of the table" if you made a series of 30% shots with lots of CB travel,
in full "salvage mode", and somehow managed to finish the rack?
I'd say you basically surrendered control when you made the decision to try a flyer.
Technically you kept yourself at the table, but I wouldn't say you "controlled" the table.

More willing than what? Overly aggressive 9-ball players do exist, and for those players, you're right. But overly timid 9-ball players do exist as well, and I think some players would win more, at least after getting fully adjusted to the idea, by being less willing to abandon hope of running out. I'm not sure which category I'm in; obviously I strive to be in neither.

Haven't played you enough to say which category either, but my guess is: more willing than you currently are.
Again that's only if winning is your #1 goal, and everything else (fun) is secondary.

In my years of playing I don't think I've EVER run into someone I'd call overly timid at 9b.
And don't think that means I'm so timid that all others are wildly aggressive by comparison.
I shoot flyers too when fun and personal challenge is more important than winning.
But when a league match comes up the number of safeties I play easily triples.

On the subject of those two categories, how many players
do you know who safe here instead of taking the easy duck?
Pretty much EVERYone shoots this ball even if they're less than 50% to make it.
But you can see the safety is dead easy and sells out at worst a full table bank
if you fail it, which is tough with all those blockers.

This is the kind of situation where IMO more people (even 6, 7, 8, 9s) should look at ducking.

2nzdsbx.jpg


Push&Pool is going to reply to this thread so hard........

Christ don't say that. It's like Candyman. You probably summoned him just by saying that.
 
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