Is there any truth to the claim that the old Maple is Superior to the current Maple?

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
I hear similar claims in nearly every hobby. The old stuff was the good stuff. I understand that trees are probably cut at a younger age now, in a rush to market. I also understand that hand made, custom craftsmanship can't be bought for $100, unless it is a very small item. So anyway....

Let's talk about the quality of the Maple used to make shafts for pool cues!!!

Is it just that some cue makers don't properly age their wood? Is that all there is to it?
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I hear similar claims in nearly every hobby. The old stuff was the good stuff. I understand that trees are probably cut at a younger age now, in a rush to market. I also understand that hand made, custom craftsmanship can't be bought for $100, unless it is a very small item. So anyway....

Let's talk about the quality of the Maple used to make shafts for pool cues!!!
I would put this in the "Ask Cuemaker" section. Probably get more action there. Some: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=494727
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
Going to have to define "old" here. Wood can be old, but new growth with fatter growth rings. I just drove 8 hours to South Carolina to pick up some 1890 era longleaf heart pine to trim out my new house. Stuff is hard as hell. I also used reclaimed white oak barnwood from our barn to use as a countertop and as a drinkrail in my poolroom...that stuff is even harder...took 25 years to produce 2" of growth...I counted the rings.

Then you've got cuemakers crafting shafts out of salvaged Lakewood.

Is any of this better than "new"? I think the better question is adapt to what you are playing with.if you happen to have a strong preference for a particular playing characteristic, then go for that.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When it comes to shaft wood, Viking always did it right. Unless they recently changed their process, it takes 3 years to make a shaft. Start with a large blank. Turn it. Store it in humidity controlled environment for a period of time. Repeat process several times until a finished shaft is produced. I dont recall anyone complaining that their Viking shaft has warped when using common sense storage techniques.

They (and other cue makers) choose Northern Hard Rock Maple. Why? Because in the northern States and Canada, it takes the tree longer to grow. The grow rings are tighter, and makes a denser, more stable wood.

As an example, Stradivarious violins are claimed to be superior because of the dense wood used.

From Wikipedia...
"A more modern theory attributes tree growth during a time of global low temperatures during the Little Ice Age associated with unusually low solar activity of the Maunder Minimum, circa 1645 to 1750, during which cooler temperatures throughout Europe are believed to have caused stunted and slowed tree growth, resulting in unusually dense wood.[50][1] Further evidence for this "Little Ice Age theory" comes from a simple examination of the dense growth rings in the wood used in Stradivari's instruments.[51] Two researchers – University of Tennessee tree-ring scientist Henri Grissino-Mayer and Lloyd Burckle, a Columbia University climatologist – published their conclusions supporting the theory on increased wood density in the journal Dendrochronologia.[52]

In 2008, researchers from the Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands, announced further evidence that wood density caused the claimed high quality of these instruments. After examining the violins with X-rays, the researchers found that these violins all have extremely consistent density, with relatively low variation in the apparent growth patterns of the trees that produced this wood.[12]

Yet another possible explanation is that the wood was sourced from the forests of northern Croatia.[53] This maple wood is known for its extreme density resulting from the slow growth caused by harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was traded by Venetian merchants of the era, and is still used today by local luthiers and craftsfolk for musical instruments."
 
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oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When it comes to shaft wood, Viking always did it right. Unless they recently changed their process, it takes 3 years to make a shaft. Start with a large blank. Turn it. Store it in humidity controlled environment for a period of time. Repeat process several times until a finished shaft is produced. I dont recall anyone complaining that their Viking shaft has warped when using common sense storage techniques.

They (and other cue makers) choose Northern Hard Rock Maple. Why? Because in the northern States and Canada, it takes the tree longer to grow. The grow rings are tighter, and makes a denser, more stable wood.

As an example, Stradivarious violins are claimed to be superior because of the dense wood used.

From Wikipedia...
"A more modern theory attributes tree growth during a time of global low temperatures during the Little Ice Age associated with unusually low solar activity of the Maunder Minimum, circa 1645 to 1750, during which cooler temperatures throughout Europe are believed to have caused stunted and slowed tree growth, resulting in unusually dense wood.[50][1] Further evidence for this "Little Ice Age theory" comes from a simple examination of the dense growth rings in the wood used in Stradivari's instruments.[51] Two researchers – University of Tennessee tree-ring scientist Henri Grissino-Mayer and Lloyd Burckle, a Columbia University climatologist – published their conclusions supporting the theory on increased wood density in the journal Dendrochronologia.[52]

In 2008, researchers from the Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands, announced further evidence that wood density caused the claimed high quality of these instruments. After examining the violins with X-rays, the researchers found that these violins all have extremely consistent density, with relatively low variation in the apparent growth patterns of the trees that produced this wood.[12]

Yet another possible explanation is that the wood was sourced from the forests of northern Croatia.[53] This maple wood is known for its extreme density resulting from the slow growth caused by harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was traded by Venetian merchants of the era, and is still used today by local luthiers and craftsfolk for musical instruments."

Best post on the subject I have read on this forum.
If you really want to understand wood, read "Understanding Wood: A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley.
Cuts through all the bull and mythology.
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Learning about Wood

I worked with Guido Orlandi for a while, on this subject. We did some research into wood density & how possibly to detect the better wood. I contacted some Luthiers out in Northern California, who are trying to create beautiful sounds from their instruments & they helped me create a sound chamber for testing the wood.

We also found out that HUGE Wood Companies use sound to distinguish good wood from mediocre wood. They put a prod in the top, a prod into the bottom, record the sound waves & mark the tree with a little f or a Big F . The little f is for firewood.... The Big F is for Furniture.

We used turned & hanging wood dowels, with different number growth rings, different weights, different flex points to grade his shaftwood & how straight Grained the growth is. Some of the wood was Old Timeless Timber Superior Lake wood, some was not.

His Shafts are very good...
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I own 3 decent cues. Schon, Woodworth, Irogov. Each of them was minimum 10 years old when I bought them. I figure if it hasn't warped by then it most likely won't warp and all of them roll just as straight today as when I bought them.

Can't answer the op question about maple but that's my theory on cues.
 

CuesDirectly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some of the wood was Old Timeless Timber Superior Lake wood, some was not.

His Shafts are very good...

There is no such thing as Lakewood or Lake wood. Please don't misunderstand, I really appreciate all that you just said but I don't want our wonderful readers and lurkers to begin searching for something that does not exist.

Before log trucks, many lumber companies would float their timber to the mills, at times they used barges.

Barges sink and during that period, many did just that. They were never salvaged until more modern times with more modern equipment. They were whatever they were when they went down, Maple, Oak, Fir, whatever, they never changed species but the descriptive words were added.

Lake salvaged Maple, hundreds of years old, sold at auctions for record breaking prices for the species, records that most likely still stand today.
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
So, with shafts made from these sunken logs, is it because the logs are from old growth trees with a high ring count, or did the many years of being sunk in the cold depths of one of the great lakes also enter in?
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
So, with shafts made from these sunken logs, is it because the logs are from old growth trees with a high ring count, or did the many years of being sunk in the cold depths of one of the great lakes also enter in?

They are typically old growth logs, unlike today's harvest, so they are usually denser (comparing the same species), stronger and more resistant to disease and termites, etc.

Whether or not that makes a better cue shaft is subjective. It definitely would build a stonger, more durable house. Compare old growth verses new growth in a fir 2 X 4 below.

Cue maker techniques for selecting and acclimating wood, including storing, cutting and handling wood shafts definitely make a difference in whether or not the shaft will warp over time. For example, I remember at Tad's shop, they refused to cut shafts during the wet winter months. None of my Tad shafts ever warped.
 

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deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I seem to remember Eddie Kelly had a beautiful box cue and his wife

threw it in the swimming pool

Should Eddie be mad or thankful?
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They are typically old growth logs, unlike today's harvest, so they are usually denser (comparing the same species), stronger and more resistant to disease and termites, etc.

Whether or not that makes a better cue shaft is subjective. It definitely would build a stonger, more durble house. Compare old growth verses new growth in a fir 2 X 4 below.

Cue maker techniques for selecting and acclimating wood, including storing, cutting and handling wood shafts definitely make a difference in whether or not the shaft will warp over time. For example, I remember at Tad's shop, they refused to cut shafts during the wet winter months. None of my Tad shafts ever warped.

Old growth wood isnt necessarily denser just because it's old. #1... it grew in different conditions to get the densely packed grain. If you compare maple grown in Canada to the same species as grown in... say...swamp pine in the Carolinas (which is probably where that top 2x4 was grown) you will see the same difference.

And #2...I think man might have something to do with it. They are planting genetically engineered trees that grow faster. Not the same thing that grew wild in the 1800's.
 
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AkGuy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting

I have three of the Lake Salvage shafts Diveney sells and one of his Kiel Wood shafts. They are all near identical 30" shafts with an extended Pro Taper. I doubt I will ever spend much time playing with any other shafts.

To me they give a stiff hit even with the 12.5 tip diameter and long Pro taper. Stiffer then the Kiel Wood shaft with the same dimensions. Whether they are worth the current $500.00 asking price is for the buyer to decide. To me they are and I think mine were a bit over $300.00 when I got them in 2013.

For several years I have been reading different internet opinions and theories about old submerged Maple logs and what the cold water does to their molecules over a long period of time.

When the settlers first started a lumber business on the shores of the Great Lakes, they had the best of it as far as wood quality and most of the Maple were mature trees that had been growing undisturbed, except for fire from the beginning of Earths time.

I hear Japan has a bunch of Fir and Hemlock logs submerged for further use and I am curious what their wood experts think of old submerged wood.

Players shoot great pool with all kinds of Maple shafts, heck they even use that soulless and ugly carbon fiber stuff for a shaft.

But, when I am on my home table with a cigar and a cold one and old rock or country playing on the Bose and a Lake Salvage shaft, life is just good!
 
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jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
They are typically old growth logs, unlike today's harvest, so they are usually denser (comparing the same species), stronger and more resistant to disease and termites, etc.

Whether or not that makes a better cue shaft is subjective. It definitely would build a stonger, more durble house. Compare old growth verses new growth in a fir 2 X 4 below.

Cue maker techniques for selecting and acclimating wood, including storing, cutting and handling wood shafts definitely make a difference in whether or not the shaft will warp over time. For example, I remember at Tad's shop, they refused to cut shafts during the wet winter months. None of my Tad shafts ever warped.

Ok, so on this note...just today I loaded up some heart pine post and beam timbers. Many are 21' long. Some are hand hewn. I pulled quite a bit of square cut nails. These bad boys possibly date all the way back to 1700 or so Google tells me. Wish I could know more. I'm gonna build the most historically significant screened in porch that ever existed, lol.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If anyone has some maple like that picture,I want to buy
enough piece to build about 6 shafts for myself

I have always liked heavy shaftwood,I don't care about color or stains

I likefirm stiff wood.

dean

214 477 7323
 

misterpoole

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would put this in the "Ask Cuemaker" section. Probably get more action there. Some: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=494727

This was the best advice. I haven't seen anything worthwhile otherwise. Except tone is very important relative to performance.
Also an excellent maple shaft is better than any carbon shaft..my opinion of course
White shafts preferred by collectors are not the good playing shafts.
 
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TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Old growth wood isnt necessarily denser just because it's old. #1... it grew in different conditions to get the densely packed grain. If you compare maple grown in Canada to the same species as grown in... say...swamp pine in the Carolinas (which is probably where that top 2x4 was grown) you will see the same difference.

And #2...I think man might have something to do with it. They are planting genetically engineered trees that grow faster. Not the same thing that grew wild in the 1800's.

You're right - that's the issue. We are harvesting new growth instead of old. If we were to harvest current old growth forests, the wood would be denser as well.
 
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