"Ivory Ban" foolishness

commswatch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, I know...ANOTHER ivory ban thread. I've watched as multiple AZ'rs have cried and whined (some praise - to be fair) about the CA ban on ivory. Would someone please try to convince me that YOU, as a CA consumer/buyer of billiard products, cannot buy a cue with a little ivory?
I understand that the CA cuemakers and cue dealers might suffer a bit, but the consumer need only suffer if they choose.
Whats stopping Joe the Plumber from having his Uncle in Idaho purchase that 1996 Black Boar dream cue? Whats stopping you from bringing it back into the state after the next Idaho family reunion?
There was NO requirement previously to track the sale, trade and/or ownership of Ivory embellished cues. Therefore, Unless there is a date of manufacture on the cue itself dated AFTER the complete Ivory ban of Jun 2016, there is absolutely nothing the state of CA can do about it.
Granted - in the 1 in a Trillion chance you DO get caught with an Ivory cue driving across state lines (and ONLY at exactly the state line while inbound), you might have yourself a problem.
The Gov't of CA has absolutely no idea what Ivory cues are in their state at this exact moment, 1 day before the ban. ALLLLLL those cues they dont know about are legal, and will remain legal FOREVER. Think about that. They dont even know who, what when where or how alllllll those existing cues got into CA...how the HELL are they going to prove that the ONE black boar in your collection of 43 Ivory Laden cues, was purchased AFTER the Ban and brought into the state?

Now granted, the above applies to used cues built before Jun 2016. Owning an Ivory laden Cue that can be PROVEN to have been built post ban would be bad. But how the hell are you going to get caught? Do you have plans to use your ivory cue (date stamped AUG 2016) as a cane whilst you go to the fish and game office to renew your Abalone license?

The above hypothetical activities would be illegal after the ban, I do not suggest them. I actually support the idea behind the CA ban. But something I learned early in the military - Don't even bother giving an order that can't be enforced. And this ban is UNENFORCEABLE on the daily consumer.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like and other Law, its only wrong if you get caught...and the jails are full of folks who can prove that premise true.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Would someone please try to convince me that YOU, as a CA consumer/buyer of billiard products, cannot buy a cue with a little ivory?

Because I want elephants to still be around in another 50-100 years.

Lets face it:: if the demand for ivory was zero (worldwide) then the poachers would not be out in the field killing elephants.
 

Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because I want elephants to still be around in another 50-100 years.

Lets face it:: if the demand for ivory was zero (worldwide) then the poachers would not be out in the field killing elephants.

The laws will only make the price of Ivory increase. Look at cocain as an example, a completely illegal substance of which the price is astronomical. But if the govt were to make it legal for anyone to posses and sell the price would be drivin down and the and the cartels would be put out of business. You wanna save elephants and put the poachers out of business. Legalize ivory trade and flood the market with the literally TONS of confiscated ivory the govt has possession of instead of destroying it (and LOWERING SUPPLY!!!) and the problem would be solved.....these laws will only make ivory a more precious and expensive product hence benefitting the goal of Poachers TO MAKE MORE MONEY!!!
 

Skratch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the use of Ivory in general is overrated. I like mother of pearl as the white element in my cues, and I'm sure there are other bone alternatives out there. I agree, banning the use is silly as an unenforceable law, but the reason is to drive down demand so suppliers have less reason to kill an endangered species. What would you do as an alternative?
 

RickLafayette

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
There are thousands of gun grips and knife handles being made (legally) with fossilized mammoth ivory and walrus tusks. Some of the "antiqued" grain colors and patterns are really beautiful. I have a straight razor with mammoth tusk handles. I'm surprised I haven't seen any of this material used in cue making (joints, rings)
 

Pangit

Banned
Granted - in the 1 in a Trillion chance you DO get caught with an Ivory cue driving across state lines (and ONLY at exactly the state line while inbound), you might have yourself a problem.

Supply and demand, Poachers and falsified pre-ban documents etc...Karma normally sorts this sort of thing out. I hope you don't get caught. :kiss:

TT.jpg

Link

Tusker Tim, the biggest and oldest African elephant in Kenya and recognized by its huge tusks, one that nearly touches the ground, wandered toward a camp near Amboseli National Park clearly in need of help.

The iconic elephant had been speared in the head.

“The 47-year-old elephant knew he needed help and went to where he would be able to get it,” The Dodo wrote.

As conservationist David Bates counted buffalo calves in one of the sanctuaries on June 16, a ranger told him “one of our signature bull elephants” was quickly moving in their direction.

“Indeed, it was Tim,” Bates told Daily Nation. “I was excited to see him. But then, as he drew closer to us, we realized that something was wrong. Protruding from his head was a spear, and on his forehead was a huge bleeding wound. It appears it was hit with a large rock.”

Bates feared the spear was poisoned and immediately contacted the Kenya Wildlife Service, which sent a veterinarian who would arrive the next day.

Overnight, officials lost track of the African elephant, but Big Life Foundation, Amboseli Trust for Elephants and the KWS initiated searches and after three hours an aerial search team spotted Tusker Tim.

The elephant was darted and treated.

“To all our relief, the spear wasn’t poisoned, and had gone through the ear and merely scratched the skin underneath,” the Big Life Foundation wrote on Facebook. “Within five minutes, Tim was up and heading back to the swamps in the middle of Amboseli.”

This is the second time the African elephant had been speared. In November 2014, Dr. Michael Njoroge, who heads the Amboseli Veterinary Unit, successfully treated the elephant for a deep spear wound in the rear that had become infected.

This week, Amboseli Trust for Elephants wrote that Tusker Tim was doing fine, and indicated the latest attack was not done by poachers.

“He was injured by a small spike spear that the youngsters use,” ATE wrote. “We don’t know what the circumstances were that initiated the attack. We do know that outside the Amboseli National Park there are serious challenges for human-elephant co-existence.”

The Maasai people are rapidly expanding agriculture into the elephants’ range and officials are calling for a fence to be built around the edge of the farmlands to prevent future conflicts.

“We think the solution is fencing, as much as we don’t like seeing fences in what was open savannah, but we have to be practical,” ATE wrote.
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Supply and demand, Poachers and falsified pre-ban documents etc...Karma normally sorts this sort of thing out. I hope you don't get caught. :kiss:

View attachment 427448

Link

Tusker Tim, the biggest and oldest African elephant in Kenya and recognized by its huge tusks, one that nearly touches the ground, wandered toward a camp near Amboseli National Park clearly in need of help.

The iconic elephant had been speared in the head.

“The 47-year-old elephant knew he needed help and went to where he would be able to get it,” The Dodo wrote.

As conservationist David Bates counted buffalo calves in one of the sanctuaries on June 16, a ranger told him “one of our signature bull elephants” was quickly moving in their direction.

“Indeed, it was Tim,” Bates told Daily Nation. “I was excited to see him. But then, as he drew closer to us, we realized that something was wrong. Protruding from his head was a spear, and on his forehead was a huge bleeding wound. It appears it was hit with a large rock.”

Bates feared the spear was poisoned and immediately contacted the Kenya Wildlife Service, which sent a veterinarian who would arrive the next day.

Overnight, officials lost track of the African elephant, but Big Life Foundation, Amboseli Trust for Elephants and the KWS initiated searches and after three hours an aerial search team spotted Tusker Tim.

The elephant was darted and treated.

“To all our relief, the spear wasn’t poisoned, and had gone through the ear and merely scratched the skin underneath,” the Big Life Foundation wrote on Facebook. “Within five minutes, Tim was up and heading back to the swamps in the middle of Amboseli.”

This is the second time the African elephant had been speared. In November 2014, Dr. Michael Njoroge, who heads the Amboseli Veterinary Unit, successfully treated the elephant for a deep spear wound in the rear that had become infected.

This week, Amboseli Trust for Elephants wrote that Tusker Tim was doing fine, and indicated the latest attack was not done by poachers.

“He was injured by a small spike spear that the youngsters use,” ATE wrote. “We don’t know what the circumstances were that initiated the attack. We do know that outside the Amboseli National Park there are serious challenges for human-elephant co-existence.”

The Maasai people are rapidly expanding agriculture into the elephants’ range and officials are calling for a fence to be built around the edge of the farmlands to prevent future conflicts.

“We think the solution is fencing, as much as we don’t like seeing fences in what was open savannah, but we have to be practical,” ATE wrote.

Great story... thanks for posting it. I really like positive animal stories.
 

Dimeball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The laws will only make the price of Ivory increase. Look at cocain as an example, a completely illegal substance of which the price is astronomical. But if the govt were to make it legal for anyone to posses and sell the price would be drivin down and the and the cartels would be put out of business. You wanna save elephants and put the poachers out of business. Legalize ivory trade and flood the market with the literally TONS of confiscated ivory the govt has possession of instead of destroying it (and LOWERING SUPPLY!!!) and the problem would be solved.....these laws will only make ivory a more precious and expensive product hence benefitting the goal of Poachers TO MAKE MORE MONEY!!!
Boom!

Why not use tranquilizers instead of killing the elephant. Got ivory, got elephants... Win win.
 

Moet.1977

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Boom!

Why not use tranquilizers instead of killing the elephant. Got ivory, got elephants... Win win.

Because the scum that kill them don't care and it's probably easier for them to get
bullets. Tranquilizers probably cost more and are harder to get their hands on.
 

Dimeball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because the scum that kill them don't care and it's probably easier for them to get
bullets. Tranquilizers probably cost more and are harder to get their hands on.
I was following the previous comments logic, make the trade legal. Then harvesting ivory would become professional or maybe even govt ran. Market would take care of the poachers when the price is no longer as attractive. Business conducted properly would spare the animals.
 

rhinobywilhite

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was following the previous comments logic, make the trade legal. Then harvesting ivory would become professional or maybe even govt ran. Market would take care of the poachers when the price is no longer as attractive. Business conducted properly would spare the animals.

This is one of those subjects where there appears to be no middle ground for compromise.

Those who want to "save the elephant" insist on total ban.

Those who want to have or use legal ivory would like to see reserves for the elephant and stricter punishment for poachers legal sales of ivory from confiscated hordes.

Notice in Pangits news item the statement that the Masaai tribesmen want to EXPAND their farmland and desire fences around the refuge to contain the elephants. When elephants conflict with the local population, the elephants lose(anyone remember what happened to the buffalo in the Americas?

You can make ivory totally illegal but the elephant in a unrestricted area is doomed to die. The local folks are farming to survive and they will kill those elephants that encroach their farm land.

Saving the elephant in the wild will take money from persons all over the world to purchase refuge land and fences to retain the herd on the refuge. Some misguided people think passing a law will make ivory trade illicit and end the killing of elephants.Tell that to someone who wants mj or coke in the U.S. or anywhere it is illegal. You can still buy drugs here and you will still be able to buy ivory. If the law is not overturned, I sure won't be using it but it torques me that the government can do this type enforcement by executive action..
 

Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Boom!

Why not use tranquilizers instead of killing the elephant. Got ivory, got elephants... Win win.

Lol ivory tusks are a nessary part of survival for wild elephants. No tusks and the elephant will die in the wild. Same end result as shooting them in the face
 
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erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The laws will only make the price of Ivory increase. Look at cocain as an example, a completely illegal substance of which the price is astronomical. But if the govt were to make it legal for anyone to posses and sell the price would be drivin down and the and the cartels would be put out of business. You wanna save elephants and put the poachers out of business. Legalize ivory trade and flood the market with the literally TONS of confiscated ivory the govt has possession of instead of destroying it (and LOWERING SUPPLY!!!) and the problem would be solved.....these laws will only make ivory a more precious and expensive product hence benefitting the goal of Poachers TO MAKE MORE MONEY!!!

What he said. Well kind of. Although banning it is driving the price up, therefore motivating poachers even more, when there weren't any bans, the poachers still slaughtered at astronomical rates. Even
Though the price is low, demand is still high. That just means they have to kill more to make as much money.

I don't think the problem is with small thing like pool cues and instrument parts. The problem is in Asia where they hold the ownership of large pieces of ivory as one of the ultimate status symbols. There are whole shops filed with as much ivory in one store as would satisfy the demands from cue makers for decades.
 
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Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Banning the use of Mastedon ivory will also help this effort.

It's human nature to want what you can't have! Banning something gives it an allure to people who will now pay even more premiums for it. Banning is far from and IMO a completely backward approach
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
It's human nature to want what you can't have! Banning something gives it an allure to people who will now pay even more premiums for it. Banning is far from and IMO a completely backward approach

Just curious, how many US cue makers are buying ivory right now ?
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The CA law is clear.....OP has it mostly correct..........I live in CA........I've spoken with the people behind the law.

I cannot order or purchase or sell any cue, regardless of whether it's new cue or used, if it has any form of ivory.

Cue-makers and cue sellers nationwide cannot build or sell a cue to anyone residing in the State of California.

However, when I am not physically in California, I can still buy ....or sell my exiting ivory laden cues, or any cue I fancy.

Possession of pool cues with ivory, or transportation within the USA borders, is not against the law, nor is ownership.

California cue-makers will lose some business and just how much is yet to be determined but it is a hardship.

California cue buyers will surely incur inconvenience & extra costs if & when they want to buy or sell a pool cue with ivory.

California Fish & Wildlife has said they will be performing surprise inspections of locations known to process ivory.



Less than 24 hours remaining before the ban starts and every cue shipped by a CA cue-makers that has ivory starting tomorrow violates the law if the cue-maker used
any type or amount of ivory. That means there are no more Ginacues, Prewitt, Cohen or Tonkin cues with ivory.....no more ferrules or joints. Literally every CA cue-maker
is prohibited from ever using ivory again after today. That's is horrible in my opinion but I tried my best to get ready & am content with what I've assembled.

Ivory is a unique material & sadly, many will never get to appreciate the difference for some cue-makers. A natural tendency is to say how would anyone find out? When
you wind up paying a big fine and losing the beloved pool cue to confiscation, please come back and report how much money you lost. And be sure to tell the readers
about that new cue you'll never again have and remind us about how no one would ever find out that you illegally bought your pool cue using ivory.

Like I wrote, I've got my cues & I so hope everyone in CA has also gotten their cues because midnight is fast approaching.



Matt B.
 

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overlord

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The biggest threat to African Elephants is the out of control birthrate of Africans. It is the highest in the world.

Nothing Californians do will in anyway effect this reality. Cali politicians feel good but another regulation with have no real effect on the Elephants.

Elephants outside of National Parks are in trouble. Even in the parks they are being poached.

Remember this country at one time had as many as 80 million Bison and a billion Passenger Pigeons.

When the population expands the wilds diminish as well as the wild animals. Case in point the Grizzly bear which is depicted on the California flag is not found in the state any longer.

Big Bear which is just outside of LA had a huge population of Grizzlies back in the day but no longer.
 

Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just curious, how many US cue makers are buying ivory right now ?

That's a number I am not sure of but I will list a few I know use ivory inlays

Tasc
Szam
Searing
Gina
Black
Shick
BB
Hercek
Haily
Wayne
Samsara
Mcworter
manzino
Prewitt
Jerry R
Murell
White
Mottey
Spitz
Morris
Coll
SW
Niti
Owen
Carmelli
Gilbert
Stacy
Klien
Harris
Cohen
Pierce
Jacoby
Schon

AND 100+ more.....id say 95% of cue makers have at onetime used ivory in their cues
 
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