He was talking about debris on the table, which could cause what he’s talking about.
why so many kicks/skids?
- Thread starter evergruven
- Start date
He was talking about debris on the table, which could cause what he’s talking about.
I don't think debris on the table can cause what he described.
What I think he's talking about is when you get a skid with follow on the cue ball and the object ball is rotating backwards (draw) for a short time and then is sliding without rotating, and then acquires forward roll as it moves down the table. In fact the OB does not stop briefly although it may appear to when this happens.
I can't speak for him, but I thought he was referring to when a ball's path is interrupted by a piece of debris, then makes it over the hump and rolls past it. I've seen that a lot with dirty tables.
What I stated has happened several times. It may be a combination of dirty OBs and chalk on the cloth. The tables I play on get new cloth once a year and are never cleaned. Once the OB hits that spot with chalk, whether a straight shot or cut, it has a tendency to to slow down, skid whatever you want to call it. The outcome; always a missed shot.
I’m sure that happens, but the OB has travelled well past the OB and cue ball contact point when it happens to me. Since I use mainly top or bottom english, the combination of spin on the OB imparted by the cue ball and dirty OBs and chalk on the cloth could be the cause. In 30 years of playing on tables that were cleaned regularly and object balls cleaned daily, I never had that happen.
It's attributed to George Bernard Shaw that British and the Americans are two peoples divided by a common language.
The British have a different word for everything. It's like they don't even speak English any more.For instance, they can put several bags of groceries into their boots.
Different words for this single problem of too much friction at the contact point:
skid, cling -- US English
kick -- UK English and the snooker world
bad contact, heavy contact -- carom players speaking English
buttage -- French (boo-tahj)
Here is a video in French talking about "buttages" and demonstrating them:
http://corcelia1.over-blog.com/2016/06/le-buttage-au-billard.html
Weather, hot, sticky = more skids
Balls not clean = more skids
Stroke a bit "funny" = more skids
Crap on the table ( dirt, powder) = more skids
The stroke being funny and playing with a harder tip can be hand in hand, both would affect how the cueball is struck.
Almost every skid I have had was after I did something odd with my stroke, like tried to hold it up for speed.
hey hang, thanks for the reply.
balls are clean, table's clean, weather's nice..but what you say about the stroke being funny
I think that may have played a part, plus whatever pool voodoo shows up from time to time:grin:
thanks again.
Sorry guys, but the stroke and the tip have nothing to do with it (but I'm interested in why you think they might).
The good news is our bad strokes won't cause more skids.
The bad news is our good strokes won't cause fewer skids.
pj
chgo
Actually, stroke has everything to do with why skids happen. It is the sole reason the cue ball gains momentum. It is the sole influence on causing spin to be applied. I can almost intentionally cause a ball to skid by stroking through the cue ball incorrectly. It’s a three part combo. The cloth needs to be relatively slick, the balls need to be appropriately dirty, and the final part, the cue ball movement needs the proper spin and speed to make that skid. How else is the cue ball going to cause a skid if the stroke doesn’t tell the cue ball what to do?
But the tip? Yea that has nothing to do with in/decreasing skids.
Nope, don't think so. How do you think that happens?
Why "almost" if the stroke controls it?
The cue ball doesn't cause a skid - more than usual friction between the balls at the point of contact does (usually a spot of chalk on the CB).
This is pretty well known.
pj
chgo
So you can’t provide evidence as to why you don’t think so? “It is known”? Pathetic
And why almost, because it’s hard to neuter a stroke intentionally to maintain a skid level contact. And I mean almost in the sense of 7/10 attempts I could cause a skid, 3/10 my stroke wouldn’t be quite right.
An object ball cannot be skidded without the cue ball contacting it. So explain how the cue ball doesn’t cause the skid when it is literally half the equation for a skid to occur? A perfectly clean cue ball, object ball, and clean cloth still cause skids.
If it isn’t an improper stroking of the cue ball that causes skids, then why does every pro level situation in which we see the skid only occur happen when the player is attempting a slight stun/roll shot?
Actually, you can provide the evidence (if you really want to know)...
Hit a bunch of shots with and without whatever stroke you think makes skids more likely. Tell us how many more skids you get with the "skid stroke". (Not normal throw just maximized with a stun hit, but actual obvious skid.)
Thanks in advance,
pj
chgo
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I’m providing reasoning to my introduction of the topic. You’re just spouting off saying “it is known” without any justification. A skid occurs when the cue ball has extended contact with the object ball. That occurs when the cue ball has more forward momentum of itself than it imparts on the object ball. The cue ball is effectively trying to climb up the object ball, and that’s what causes the skid. Extra chalk at contact point increases the chances of a skid. But a cleanly/properly struck cue ball will never cause a skid.
If you're actually interested in learning about it, it's been discussed lots of times here - do a search and pay special attention to what Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett and Mike Page (our resident scientists) say about it. For starters, here's Dr. Dave's "resource page" about the topic.
I get how it can seem that way, but I don't think that actually means anything.
pj
chgo
Well for one, you can stop thinking, and actually start knowing. How else does a cue ball extend its contact time? Proper speed/spin at contact. You’re really grasping at straws here Patrick. Knock it off.
As I (and the others I recommended to you) have said over and over, nothing the cue ball does extends its own contact time beyond normal throw - extra friction between the CB and OB exactly at the point of contact (usually a spot of chalk) does that.
No skin off my nose if you don't want to learn about this stuff - but other readers deserve the facts.
pj
chgo
PJ, i see about 2-3 skids a month(either mine or other's) and its ALWAYS dirty balls. Totally agree with your's, Dr.D's and others on this.
I think there might be some confusion about more normal throw vs. skid. For instance, a slow stun hit increases the amount of normal throw - that could be mistaken for skid.
pj
chgo
No doubt......