realkingcobra is the man!!!

realkingcobra said:

Did someone lie to you and tell you wood never compresses, bolts never stretch, and humidity in wood never evaporates causing wood to shrink? Bet anything

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I'm going to get a torque wrench after work and I'll post the results tomorrow.
I thought some of the rails had a knock to them if hit with speed at various points....but then again, I thought it was something to do with me.

Cardigan Kid said:

I'm going to get a torque wrench after work and I'll post the results tomorrow.
I thought some of the rails had a knock to them if hit with speed at various points....but then again, I thought it was something to do with me.

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It IS you, if you stop hitting the balls into the rails...that sound will go away

realkingcobra said:

Did someone lie to you and tell you wood never compresses, bolts never stretch, and humidity in wood never evaporates causing wood to shrink? Bet anything

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Are there established or recommended intervals to check the torque spec of the rail bolts?

Thanks.

realkingcobra said:

It IS you, if you stop hitting the balls into the rails...that sound will go away

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:thumbup:

I left myself open for that one didn't I? Haha

realkingcobra said:

They don't have the heavy anchor nuts so 10 ft lbs.

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Thank you! Some were under 5' lb. none over 10. They took 12' lb nicely & have tapered washers.

jimmyco said:

Are there established or recommended intervals to check the torque spec of the rail bolts?

Thanks.

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Every couple of months until they no longer show signs of coming loose, then about every 6 months.

SmokinJoe46 said:

Thank you! Some were under 5' lb. none over 10. They took 12' lb nicely & have tapered washers.

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Be careful, over tightening will bend the flat stamped and threaded anchor nut and cause the threads to stretch, can be a major problem taking them out later.

And any rails using T-nuts in the rails, 10lbs MAX, unless you just like having the rail bolts cut off to remove the rails when the other needs replacing. Once you spin them, its over!!!

What do T Rail bolts look like? I've looked at many different Google results, and I was trying to determine what kind of bolts I have on my table.

Interesting info provided by this thread. Really makes one think about their own table and the variance of how different tables play.

Wondering if more info on the below questions is available?

1.) Is there a more 'for dummies' overview (perhaps with images) of this for those mechanically inept like myself to help understand how to do/check this?

2.) Do reputable table installers / repairers check this when replacing the cloth?

3.) Curious as to how common of an issue is this on all tables (both home and at the bars / pool halls)? (The answer here would seem to be of major importance in understanding the variance of how different tables play).

4.) Is the 'thump' noise a rail makes when in contact when with a ball a good indication of this issue?

Wieguns said:

What do T Rail bolts look like? I've looked at many different Google results, and I was trying to determine what kind of bolts I have on my table.

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T-nuts, not T-rail nuts, if you look at the link below it explains what T-nuts are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-nut

Here are some old commercial Brunswick figure 8 nut plates off of an Anniversary model D-C. Just wanted pass along some info that l also learned from RKC. If you are thinking that your rails are somewhat loose then they probably are if you still have these nut plates on your old commercial Brunswick. The best way to tell is when you remove the suspect rail and see the nutplate outline embedded in the cloth then you know that the wood screw threads have failed to hold the plate. It will do no good to torque the rail bolts because the relative movement is between the figure 8 and the rail, not between the rail nutplates and rail bolts. My rails are pretty much toast between this and the staple holes and general malpractice over the years while trying to convert monarch rails to K-55 profiles, so my fix is just have new rails made to pro-cut pocket standards and later have these original overhauled to original specs by Mark Gregory as well.
I would imagine once the mechanics convert the figure 8s over to the Diamond type inserts then the torque would be the same as the Diamond Torque? In the pic below you can see how the nutplate and crappy staple job has made the impression in the cloth. Anyway, thanks again for the rail lesson RKC.



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I put tightened my diamond pro-am's rail bolts to 15 today.

Before I did it, I was getting ~4 3/4 to 5 lengths up and down table.....

After I put them at 15, I'm now getting ~5 1/4 to ~5 1/2 lengths up and down the table.

It made a big difference.

Lol.... I didn't even know I had a problem.

Were learning more and more as table owners!!!!




Thanks Glenn!!!!!!

realkingcobra said:

Did someone lie to you and tell you wood never compresses, bolts never stretch, and humidity in wood never evaporates causing wood to shrink? Bet anything��

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Took a torque wrench to my diamond table today, set for 15 ft lbs per bolt....

Every one of the 24 rail bolts had to be tightened. 4 were actually only finger tight.
Glenn wins this bet because he set the odds at 24 to 1....it was guaranteed by him that every one would not be tight and he waa right.

I only had 25 minutes to give the table a once over after tightening. The one corner pocket doesn't hang balls as easily as it did before--you can hit the pocket with super pace and it will drop. No more rail knock in some curious spots that existed before.

Hats off to the table design to be able to access the rail bolts very easily with a small extension and socket. So now I'll be able to go over them every few months or so to make sure they stay tight.

And thanks to Glenn for stopping in and dropping valuable bits of information to those of us here. Big thanks, Sir.

Lawnboy77 said:

Here are some old commercial Brunswick figure 8 nut plates off of an Anniversary model D-C. Just wanted pass along some info that l also learned from RKC. If you are thinking that your rails are somewhat loose then they probably are if you still have these nut plates on your old commercial Brunswick. The best way to tell is when you remove the suspect rail and see the nutplate outline embedded in the cloth then you know that the wood screw threads have failed to hold the plate. It will do no good to torque the rail bolts because the relative movement is between the figure 8 and the rail, not between the rail nutplates and rail bolts. My rails are pretty much toast between this and the staple holes and general malpractice over the years while trying to convert monarch rails to K-55 profiles, so my fix is just have new rails made to pro-cut pocket standards and later have these original overhauled to original specs by Mark Gregory as well.
I would imagine once the mechanics convert the figure 8s over to the Diamond type inserts then the torque would be the same as the Diamond Torque? In the pic below you can see how the nutplate and crappy staple job has made the impression in the cloth. Anyway, thanks again for the rail lesson RKC.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Thanks for your post and the picture. I guess it is safe to assume this issue exists on Gold Crown I's, since they used a very similar plate.

Do you think the screw holes in your original rails could be refurbished, using one of the many available techniques? It seems the forces may be too great for the toothpick trick, but maybe boring them out and gluing-in a hardwood plug would work? Or maybe boring the holes out for metal inserts for hardwood, which accept machine screws, and changing out the flathead wood screws for flathead machine screws? (These inserts are available in a huge selection of sizes and types, in brass, stainless steel, etc.) The idea here is a good, permanent fix that doesn't require taking the rail apart.

jviss said:

Thanks for your post and the picture. I guess it is safe to assume this issue exists on Gold Crown I's, since they used a very similar plate.

Do you think the screw holes in your original rails could be refurbished, using one of the many available techniques? It seems the forces may be too great for the toothpick trick, but maybe boring them out and gluing-in a hardwood plug would work? Or maybe boring the holes out for metal inserts for hardwood, which accept machine screws, and changing out the flathead wood screws for flathead machine screws? (These inserts are available in a huge selection of sizes and types, in brass, stainless steel, etc.) The idea here is a good, permanent fix that doesn't require taking the rail apart.

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Why bother, rail that old are more in need of being rebuilt than fixing the fig 8 nut plates, so almost all those rails are trashed anyway.

realkingcobra said:

Why bother, rail that old are more in need of being rebuilt than fixing the fig 8 nut plates, so almost all those rails are trashed anyway.

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I hear you Glenn, but I was thinking that in the case of a recently re-covered GC I with OK rubber, fixing the nut plates (if needed) would be a expeditious and economical interim improvement. If one could expect the improvement folks here report from tightening the rails, this would be quite the bang for the buck. And, it could be accomplished in a few hours.

jviss said:

I hear you Glenn, but I was thinking that in the case of a recently re-covered GC I with OK rubber, fixing the nut plates (if needed) would be a expeditious and economical interim improvement. If one could expect the improvement folks here report from tightening the rails, this would be quite the bang for the buck. And, it could be accomplished in a few hours.

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Here's something for you to ponder. Any GC1 or 2 that has the plastic extensions attached to the rail blinds and mounted to the frame....blocks the access needed in order to check and tighten the rail bolts. The rail blinds AND pockets must be removed first in order to check and tighten the rails bolts, so hours are required instead of minutes to do this adjustment, that's called a design flaw.

Glenn, I notice you lowered the torque on some of the older tables to about 10 ft-lbs. Would that be the optimal torque for an old Gandy Big too? Thanks