Drilling shaft to reduce squirt??

Eagleshot · Dec 8, 2013

Has anyone drilled out a regular shaft to reduce end mass and increase ld characteristics.

If so:

Does the shaft lose its "feel"
Are there any other complications.

I'm sure you would have to reintroduce a tenon. Not sure if you have to fill the void with foam or some other material or leave it hollow.

Any insight is welcome.

whammo57 · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
Has anyone drilled out a regular shaft to reduce end mass and increase ld characteristics.

If so:

Does the shaft lose its "feel"
Are there any other complications.

I'm sure you would have to reintroduce a tenon. Not sure if you have to fill the void with foam or some other material or leave it hollow.

Any insight is welcome.

don't be ridiculous...........

Kim

Eagleshot · Dec 9, 2013

Is this an objection to modifying a regular shaft or is there another issue?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

If you are referring to the fact that the majority of ld shafts are made this way, I can understand this being ridiculous.

I am looking for a cue maker who can perform this conversion.

DAVE_M · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
Is this an objection to modifying a regular shaft or is there another issue?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

If you are referring to the fact that the majority of ld shafts are made this way, I can understand this being ridiculous.

I am looking for a cue maker who can perform this conversion.

A cuemaker would have to work around the patented methods, unless the cuemaker doesn't care about being sued. (hypothetically speaking)

Here is the inside of an OB shaft (foam and rubber):

Inside of a Predator 314 is hollow:

Inside of a Mezz WD700 is foam:

Inside of a McDermott G-Core is wood/carbon fiber/wood:

So, hypothetically speaking, the cuemaker would need to hollow out and fill the shaft with "something" other than these.

Eagleshot · Dec 9, 2013

so drilling the last 6" of a regular shaft (not laminated) and leaving it hollow would violate the predator patent?

Russell Cues · Dec 9, 2013

Well the materials used to "plug" the laminated shafts are not uncommon materials. It would be a grey area if someone used expanding epoxy foam, its in every hardware store. But the configuration could be an issue. Basically I wouldn't bother, don't kill a good solid maple shaft.

DAVE_M · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
so drilling the last 6" of a regular shaft (not laminated) and leaving it hollow would violate the predator patent?

More or less... Yes

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=5725437.PN.&OS=PN/5725437&RS=PN/5725437

It's pretty vague.

http://seybertsbulletin.com/archive/index.php/t-209.html

Eagleshot · Dec 9, 2013

Thank you for the replies. As far as ruining a shaft - This is why I was hoping there was an experienced professional who has and will do this "conversion".

I have played with ld shafts for 8 years and recently had a cue made.

I am having difficulty adjusting to the high regular squirt as the pivot point is very short - 6-7"

All of the ld shafts on the market all seem to have the same pro's and con's with some providing better "feel" and others providing lower deflection.

It just seemed logical to send 1 of my 2 shafts to convert in this fashion.

It looks like you drill 5-6", thread and glue a short tenon in and put a short light weight ferrule on and now you have an ld shaft.

KJ Cues · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
so drilling the last 6" of a regular shaft (not laminated) and leaving it hollow would violate the predator patent?

You can do what you want with your own shaft, you just can't start a business and sell them.

DAVE_M · Dec 9, 2013

KJ Cues said:
You can do what you want with your own shaft, you just can't start a business and sell them.

Correct. You can bring a shaft and have it modified, but for a cuemaker to build and sell you one would be a no go.

Eagleshot · Dec 9, 2013

If anyone knows a reputable cue maker who is willing to perform this Please pm me with info.

Thanks again for all of the input.

GBCues · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
. . . . .
It just seemed logical to send 1 of my 2 shafts to convert in this fashion.

It looks like you drill 5-6", thread and glue a short tenon in and put a short light weight ferrule on and now you have an ld shaft.

IMHO, this assumption is not well-grounded. As you've found in your research, different LD shafts hit differently, and making these modifications to one of your existing shafts is going to change it as well. If I understand correctly, you're not happy with either of these shafts, so what happens if the cuemaker makes these modifications as you request and you're still not happy with the shaft?
You indicated that you have played with LD shafts for the last 8 years, so I assume you are happy with them or at least one of them? What about using one of those shafts or purchasing a shaft from that manufacturer (or cuemaker if they are custom shafts) and have it sized for your new butt? If your new cue has custom ringwork on the shaft, then you could ask the cuemaker if he/she is able to replicate that ringwork or that ringwork can be scavenged from the new shaft and installed on the LD shaft.
But the scary part for any cuemaker is that the "hit" of a cue or the degree of deflection is a personal preference, so that's why I suggested modifying one of the LD's that you already like or buying a new one from the same manufacturer.
My 2 cents
Gary

galipeau · Dec 9, 2013

I'm sure this would be a fun project, however, not many cuemakers want their reputation to be "cue butchers". Trying something radically different then a makers SOP for one client, without extensive testing, is risky. I'm sure this is something anyone with the right equipment could do. The question is, hasn't predator, ob, etc already done this better, if so, why not simply buy from them? Just trying to think objectively. Please post the results if you get something like this built.

JoeyInCali · Dec 9, 2013

galipeau said:
I'm sure this would be a fun project, however, not many cuemakers want their reputation to be "cue butchers". Trying something radically different then a makers SOP for one client, without extensive testing, is risky. I'm sure this is something anyone with the right equipment could do. The question is, hasn't predator, ob, etc already done this better, if so, why not simply buy from them? Just trying to think objectively. Please post the results if you get something like this built.

It's more common than you think.
I know two local makers who are known in the local hall to be doing it .
It's fairly simple. Drill 1/4 by 4-5" deep, maintain a tenon thin tenon and pressfit a capped ferrule ( you can't thread it as the tenon is thin wall ).

I've done it for my curiosity. I plugged up the hole with a disposable ear plug. I forgot if it was used or new ear plug. :grin:

KJ, has Predator maintain their patent on that hole ? I don't when the patent expires but I think that hole's patent is closing in on 20 years .

Onecrazyplayer · Dec 9, 2013

Hello

I wanted to have some fun and try to drill a 10" long 6mm wide titanium round rod for a break cue I was messing around with. The shaft was 13mm with a 1 piece phenolic tip. The shaft had to be reinforced at the collar for the 3/8ths-10 pin to support the shaft from snapping. You can do anything you want is it going to work all the time ???? Who knows but messing around with others cues and shafts is kind of a no / no but people are going to do what they want. That's why I build my own stuff now. No now to yell at me but me!

Eagleshot · Dec 9, 2013

GBCues said:
IMHO, this assumption is not well-grounded. As you've found in your research, different LD shafts hit differently, and making these modifications to one of your existing shafts is going to change it as well. If I understand correctly, you're not happy with either of these shafts, so what happens if the cuemaker makes these modifications as you request and you're still not happy with the shaft?
You indicated that you have played with LD shafts for the last 8 years, so I assume you are happy with them or at least one of them? What about using one of those shafts or purchasing a shaft from that manufacturer (or cuemaker if they are custom shafts) and have it sized for your new butt? If your new cue has custom ringwork on the shaft, then you could ask the cuemaker if he/she is able to replicate that ringwork or that ringwork can be scavenged from the new shaft and installed on the LD shaft.
But the scary part for any cuemaker is that the "hit" of a cue or the degree of deflection is a personal preference, so that's why I suggested modifying one of the LD's that you already like or buying a new one from the same manufacturer.
My 2 cents
Gary

I have played w/ ld shafts for the past 8 years - But I don't necessarily like them.

all of the subjective terms of "hit" or "feel" could be used to describe my issues with all of my former ld shafts.

ld (deflection or squirt - whichever you prefer) is the only measurable factor in a shaft. I have used predator, Tiger x ld and players hxt.

It would cost thousands of dollars to try all the ld shafts to find "my personal ideal shaft"

If I could take an extra shaft I have now and apply an ld conversion for .....lets say $100, thats a gamble I'm willing to take.

I could offer the cue maker a "hold harmless" agreement - if the shaft turns out worthless - well, my loss.

I would offer a brief video of pre-conversion pivot point and post conversion pivot point to demonstrate effectiveness of the conversion - The cue makers name can be withheld at his or her discretion.

JoeyInCali · Dec 9, 2013

Eagleshot said:
I have played w/ ld shafts for the past 8 years - But I don't necessarily like them.

all of the subjective terms of "hit" or "feel" could be used to describe my issues with all of my former ld shafts.

ld (deflection or squirt - whichever you prefer) is the only measurable factor in a shaft. I have used predator, Tiger x ld and players hxt.

It would cost thousands of dollars to try all the ld shafts to find "my personal ideal shaft"

If I could take an extra shaft I have now and apply an ld conversion for .....lets say $100, thats a gamble I'm willing to take.

I could offer the cue maker a "hold harmless" agreement - if the shaft turns out worthless - well, my loss.

I would offer a brief video of pre-conversion pivot point and post conversion pivot point to demonstrate effectiveness of the conversion - The cue makers name can be withheld at his or her discretion.

If you want an existing shaft drilled, you're out of luck. The tenon diameter on those are usually 5/16 or smaller . Drilling them a 1/4 hole by yay deep would destroy that tenon. Very few have 3/8 diameter tenon.

Btw, just because one manufacturer calls their shafts LD, does not mean they are really LD. In fact one of them is really HD if you ask me. It has a really heavy capped and stemmed ferrule.

Lexicologist71 · Dec 9, 2013

I'd hate to cause someone to lose a lucrative job, but why can you not get used to the 'hit' of any of those shafts? If I am convinced something helps my game, I learn to use it. We are humans. You don't have to be a Marine to adapt and overcome.

iusedtoberich · Dec 9, 2013

There is no more predator patent it has expired.

galipeau · Dec 9, 2013

Cool stuff Joey, I will have to mess around with this concept. Also, idk about the titanium rod thing. I would imagine that it would be counterproductive in reducing squirt. .. just a guess tho.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Drilling shaft to reduce squirt??

Mark Nanashee

Kim Walker

Mark Nanashee

AzB Silver Member

Mark Nanashee

Maverick Cue Builder

AzB Silver Member

Mark Nanashee

Pro Cue Builder & Repair

AzB Silver Member

Mark Nanashee

Damn, still .002 TIR!

AzB Silver Member

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

AzB Silver Member

Mark Nanashee

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues

Rabid Schuler fanatic

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member