Brazilian rosewood banned, too

C

cardit

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Up until now Brazilian rosewood already in the U.S. was legal to buy, sell, use, and ship interstate even without documentation (much old lumber and many vintage guitars lack paperwork, since it wasn’t previously required). But as of June 26th, as a CITES Appendix I species (like elephant ivory) and in conjunction with the new total ban on all elephant ivory, it will become a felony to buy or sell anything containing Brazilian rosewood unless it has proper documentation (http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/regulation-part23-use-after-import.pdf). To qualify for the exception: “If the [rosewood] was lawfully imported…before the species was listed…you may continue to use the [rosewood]…provided you can clearly demonstrate (using written records or other documentary evidence) that your [rosewood] was imported prior to the CITES listing, with no restrictions on its use after import. If you are unable to clearly demonstrate that this exception applies, the [rosewood] may be used only for noncommercial purposes.” Good luck to you all trying to get acceptable paperwork for old wood stocks and all those guitars out there...

cardit
Rosewood and ivory in my guitars and cues
 
Ty-Tanic

Ty-Tanic

Ty-Tanic Makes U Panic
Silver Member
I guess this might force custom cue makers to start thinking outside of the box of what materials to use in exotic cues. I can't believe that both rosewood and ivory are going to be banned :'(. sad day.
 
West Point 1987

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
Good thing I don't plan to ever sell my new -R- cue...Brazilian Rosewood, ivory Hoppe ring and elephant ear wrap. Batting 1000...:(
 
u12armresl

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
Sad day?

I agree, sad day for all pool players who want vanity like ivory or a specific wood which is getting harder and harder to protect.

Great days for elephants who aren't doing anything wrong but walking around.
But hey Ty needs a new ivory ferrule.

Ty-Tanic said:
I guess this might force custom cue makers to start thinking outside of the box of what materials to use in exotic cues. I can't believe that both rosewood and ivory are going to be banned :'(. sad day.
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C

Careyp74

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
West Point 1987 said:
Good thing I don't plan to ever sell my new -R- cue...Brazilian Rosewood, ivory Hoppe ring and elephant ear wrap. Batting 1000...:(
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or travel with it.

I am curious about enforcing this ban. What is the recourse if your cue has a similar wood like Indian Rosewood, and a customs agent stops you. They aren't that different in a finished cue with clear coat on them and no access to the end grain. Is the responsibility on them to prove it is Brazilian, or on you to prove it isn't?
 
desi2960

desi2960

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
goverment out of control

they will just keep passing laws, but are they really going to be able to inforce them? if you have a favorite brw cue just make sure you don't take it to customs. i really dont think the goverment is going to start showing up at league or tournaments look for cues.

just look at pot, banning it diid not do a lot of good
 
Woof Biscuit

Woof Biscuit

and gravy
Silver Member
desi2960 said:
i really dont think the goverment is going to start showing up at league or tournaments look for cues.
Click to expand...

It's not illegal to own anywhere in the US. It is only illegal to sell across state lines or take to another country and back.
 
arps

arps

tirador (ng pansit)
Silver Member
there are lots of synthetic material better than ivory, as ferrule or joint material. same case for brazilian rosewood.
 
FairladyZ

FairladyZ

The Boss Stooge
Staff member
Moderator
Silver Member
u12armresl said:
Sad day?

I agree, sad day for all pool players who want vanity like ivory or a specific wood which is getting harder and harder to protect.

Great days for elephants who aren't doing anything wrong but walking around.
But hey Ty needs a new ivory ferrule.
Click to expand...
Without trying to fuel a political war, I agree with this. While they're nice to look at, I don't think they really played any better.....but that's just my humble opinion.
 
Q

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
arps said:
there are lots of synthetic material better than ivory, as ferrule or joint material. same case for brazilian rosewood.
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I would agree about ivory. There are synthetics that are better, though none are prettier. Not the case with the rosewood. Unfortunately, the woods that compare to it are also protected. Even cocobolo is on its way to that point. Nothing beats a good rosewood for use in cues. The best thing we have in the states is Texas ebony, but it's so rare & scarce that it will never be a common wood in cues. Parts of AZ, CA, & FL have a limited quantity of rosewoods that folks grow in their yards as ornamental trees, but it's not easy getting them. FL even has a few that grow native, same as what grows in the Yukatan, but good luck getting them.
 
Walkermine

Walkermine

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Woof Biscuit said:
It's not illegal to own anywhere in the US. It is only illegal to sell across state lines or take to another country and back.
Click to expand...

I'm not sue about that. According to the link, unless you have the required certification, even possession is illegal.

That means if you have any furniture that has the banned wood, whether you are aware of it or not, makes you a criminal. Today it is ivory and Brazilian rosewood, tomorrow it may be Honduran rosewood, some species of ebony, ring tail lizard, crocodile, or other resources deemed in danger of extinction. You see, the target will always be changing.

Furthermore, having or getting the proper CITES documentation will surely be impossible for 99% of the people since the chain of accountability was broke long ago or non existent. Try getting the certification documents from most cue makers today regarding anything.

Like others have said in various threads, should the government ever decide to enforce, and that is a big should, it will take someone or group with the financial means and perserverance to legally challenge in courts. IMO, it will eventually get overturned or become nothing more than another unenforceable law.

And for those who seemingly can't wait for the hammer to drop, remember, you are giving up another right which you may likely never get back. There are right ways for protecting our precious resources and, in this case, very wrong ways.

Long live our elephant and flora but it will have nothing to do with this insanity.

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html
 
Woof Biscuit

Woof Biscuit

and gravy
Silver Member
Walkermine said:
I'm not sue about that. According to the link, unless you have the required certification, even possession is illegal.

That means if you have any furniture that has the banned wood, whether you are aware of it or not, makes you a criminal. Today it is ivory and Brazilian rosewood, tomorrow it may be Honduran rosewood, some species of ebony, ring tail lizard, crocodile, or other resources deemed in danger of extinction. You see, the target will always be changing.

Furthermore, having or getting the proper CITES documentation will surely be impossible for 99% of the people since the chain of accountability was broke long ago or non existent. Try getting the certification documents from most cue makers today regarding anything.

Like others have said in various threads, should the government ever decide to enforce, and that is a big should, it will take someone or group with the financial means and perserverance to legally challenge in courts. IMO, it will eventually get overturned or become nothing more than another unenforceable law.

And for those who seemingly can't wait for the hammer to drop, remember, you are giving up another right which you may likely never get back. There are right ways for protecting our precious resources and, in this case, very wrong ways.

Long live our elephant and flora but it will have nothing to do with this insanity.

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html
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I pulled this right out of your link. Owning it is certainly NOT illegal.

Non-commercial movement within the United States

***This action did not impact non-commercial movement within the United States.

Non-commercial use, including interstate and intrastate movement within the United States, of legally acquired ivory is allowed.

***This action did not impact non-commercial movement within the United States.

Non-commercial use, including interstate and intrastate movement within the United States, of legally acquired ivory is allowed.
 
Walkermine

Walkermine

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Woof Biscuit said:
I pulled this right out of your link. Owning it is certainly NOT illegal.

Non-commercial movement within the United States

***This action did not impact non-commercial movement within the United States.

Non-commercial use, including interstate and intrastate movement within the United States, of legally acquired ivory is allowed.

***This action did not impact non-commercial movement within the United States.

Non-commercial use, including interstate and intrastate movement within the United States, of legally acquired ivory is allowed.
Click to expand...

Now read the description about legally acquired.
 
Walkermine

Walkermine

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Woof Biscuit said:
I see. Interesting.... How in the world would they be able to prove that it wasn't acquired legally? Innocent until proven guilty...I hope.
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They won't have to under these guidelines. The burden of proof falls upon you. Again, as I said earlier, the list will forever be expanded to include any other resource that may become endangered.
 
desi2960

desi2960

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
no man mades

and i have only been playing pool for 65 years and 20 building cue and i will assure i really don't know everything, but in my humble opinion moose antler is a better material for cues than ivory. its renewable, legal, about 1/4 the cost, and tougher. it like most materials has its drawbacks, it is really hard to find the real white stuff as most has a bit of grey in it. but if you can get past the color you are in.

brazilian rosewood is, in my opinion, one of the best cue woods in the world, but i actually prefer amazon rosewood, its not endangered yet, but its real hard to find also and i think soon to be put on the list.
 
West Point 1987

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
Woof Biscuit said:
I see. Interesting.... How in the world would they be able to prove that it wasn't acquired legally? Innocent until proven guilty...I hope.
Click to expand...

I guess you'd need to have a CITES certificate in your case to present upon request, or it's assumed not legal....?
 
Woof Biscuit

Woof Biscuit

and gravy
Silver Member
Walkermine said:
They won't have to under these guidelines. The burden of proof falls upon you. Again, as I said earlier, the list will forever be expanded to include any other resource that may become endangered.
Click to expand...

Pretty scary. So if I'm out playing pool and FWS drops in to check on me, I have to have my papers on me? I don't ever see FWS enforcing any of this except at points of entry, but that doesn't make it less illegal.
 
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