Help Dan White

SpiderWebComm · Apr 1, 2020

Here's what he posted:

"I keep thinking I have it nailed and then something changes and I'm back to experimenting again. I have noticed that some variables are more important than others. Meaning, whenever I get away from doing something a particular way, the results deteriorate. At the same time, there are other variables that I can change and it doesn't seem to matter as much. For instance, I have found that keeping the elbow as still as possible is very important for me and produces good results every time I stick to it. On the other hand, foot position doesn't seem to be as critical. As long as my upper body is in the correct alignment the feet aren't that important.

Now, if I solve all the other problems then maybe foot position becomes more important. Everything is intertwined and seeking perfection is a mess. I think in the long run finding those critical variables that matter puts us on the right path."

Throw anything and everything you can think of to help this poor lad. He's lost.
He has a WANDERING ELBOW. What should he do?

I'm thinking Tommy John surgery for starters.

Dan White · Apr 1, 2020

A few of us have been discussing the various components in the stroke in another thread. I guess Spider thinks I wrote something I might be embarrassed about. Anger management issues, possibly.

Anyway, it's a good thread (self-serving maybe

) but good.

For reference, here's what I consider a bad stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRZFeBcDsuQ

and here's what I consider a good stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZPeinmn9ks

I didn't really like how I was looking at shots with this alignment because I am actually left eye dominant. I've shifted over so now maybe my inner right eye is over the cue. I'm not a believer that the "vision center" or "whatever looks right" is automatically the best position for the eyes.

I have a new phone and while it is far better than my old phone I'm not able to do the same kind of video analysis until I get a new set up.

I'm pretty sure none of you will care to comment on this, but any comments are welcome.

BC21 · Apr 2, 2020

I really like that Coach's Eye app. You've made some good videos with it, videos that clearly show what is actually happening vs what appears or is assumed to be happening.

And I also agree that the most important thing is having the cue move freely along the shot/aim line. Having your feet in one position or another is irrelevant, other than for the purpose of creating a consistent routine. Most of the time my back foot is on the shot line, a traditional pool player stance, but other times (depending on the shot) my stance is more open, like a snooker player's stance, where I am not even close to standing on the shot line. Knowing or having the ability to feel that your cue is aligned properly for the shot is the crucial part. And of course your body needs to be aligned in a manner that allows the cue to travel along that line unhindered/unaltered.

Dan White · Apr 2, 2020

BC21 said:
I really like that Coach's Eye app. You've made some good videos with it, videos that clearly show what is actually happening vs what appears or is assumed to be happening.

And I also agree that the most important thing is having the cue move freely along the shot/aim line. Having your feet in one position or another is irrelevant, other than for the purpose of creating a consistent routine. Most of the time my back foot is on the shot line, a traditional pool player stance, but other times (depending on the shot) my stance is more open, like a snooker player's stance, where I am not even close to standing on the shot line. Knowing or having the ability to feel that your cue is aligned properly for the shot is the crucial part. And of course your body needs to be aligned in a manner that allows the cue to travel along that line unhindered/unaltered.

The placement of the feet is not the end all and be all, but of course it is still important. The most important shot in straight pool is the break shot into the next rack. That shot very often requires the player to lean over the table in a way that prohibits the normal foot placement. So you have to go with what looks right. I guess you could say that good foot/hip placement allows you to perceive what a good shot looks and feels like with your eyes and upper body so that when the lower body is in an awkward situation the upper body still knows how to execute properly.

Thanks for the comments.

BC21 · Apr 2, 2020

Dan White said:
The placement of the feet is not the end all and be all, but of course it is still important. The most important shot in straight pool is the break shot into the next rack. That shot very often requires the player to lean over the table in a way that prohibits the normal foot placement. So you have to go with what looks right. I guess you could say that good foot/hip placement allows you to perceive what a good shot looks and feels like with your eyes and upper body so that when the lower body is in an awkward situation the upper body still knows how to execute properly.

Thanks for the comments.

And then you have those occassional behind the back shots, or mechanical bridge shots, or sitting on the edge of the table, or propping your knee up on the table, etc.... During these positions the one common key factor that determines whether or not you make the shot is having the ability to know when your cue is on the line, being able to feel that your bridge hand and grip hand have the cue aligned exactly where it needs to be, regardless of feet position or body position, as long as your body is not going to interfere with the stroke.

It's like in basketball, where the shooter has a preferred stance for shooting the ball, but more importantly he or she has a great feel for where the basket is, and a great feel for knowing exactly how their arm(s) and hand(s) must move in order to put the ball there. I used to play basketball with a friend that could hit shots from anywhere, regardless of body position. He could just fling the ball up from anywhere and it would find the net. He a great feel for doing that. And that's sort of how pool players are with a good stroke.

336Robin · Apr 2, 2020

You can run into some problems with footwork if you've ever done martial arts and prefer the t stance. You'll find short shots are no problem but long shots are a real deal to over some.
Without a some spread out similar to a tripod between the feet the shoulder will move on the stroke. On a long shot its effects while small are enough to cause a lot of misses. The vids you posted
show the shoulder and upper part of the player off to the side which is fine but feet too much in a line and you'll see the whole upper body move.

Dan White said:
The placement of the feet is not the end all and be all, but of course it is still important. The most important shot in straight pool is the break shot into the next rack. That shot very often requires the player to lean over the table in a way that prohibits the normal foot placement. So you have to go with what looks right. I guess you could say that good foot/hip placement allows you to perceive what a good shot looks and feels like with your eyes and upper body so that when the lower body is in an awkward situation the upper body still knows how to execute properly.

Thanks for the comments.

garczar · Apr 2, 2020

I stop in on this thread from time-to-time and ONE thing always comes to mind: do you guys EVER stop?? Seriously. No one is going to change their mind as to how they aim/don't aim. At WHAT point do you just WALK AWAY. You guys do know the definition of insanity, right?? Wow.

Dan White · Apr 2, 2020

336Robin said:
You can run into some problems with footwork if you've ever done martial arts and prefer the t stance. You'll find short shots are no problem but long shots are a real deal to over some.
Without a some spread out similar to a tripod between the feet the shoulder will move on the stroke. On a long shot its effects while small are enough to cause a lot of misses. The vids you posted
show the shoulder and upper part of the player off to the side which is fine but feet too much in a line and you'll see the whole upper body move.

That's one reason I changed the stance and eye position even though I was getting good results. I wanted a more stable tripod than was I was getting.

Dan White · Apr 2, 2020

garczar said:
I stop in on this thread from time-to-time and ONE thing always comes to mind: do you guys EVER stop?? Seriously. No one is going to change their mind as to how they aim/don't aim. At WHAT point do you just WALK AWAY. You guys do know the definition of insanity, right?? Wow.

CTE isn't discussed much in this forum any more. There are still some personality clashes, though.

HawaiianEye · Apr 2, 2020

Dan White said:
CTE isn't discussed much in this forum any more. There are still some personality clashes, though.

It NEVER was "discussed".

It was ARGUED.

duckie · Apr 2, 2020

HawaiianEye said:
It NEVER was "discussed".

It was ARGUED.

Well, that’s arguable........

Dan White · Apr 3, 2020

duckie said:
Well, that’s arguable........

I may regret saying this but many of us started out "discussing." When you are met with nothing but "it's already been explained," or "you have to go to the table and try it, you idiot," and so on it becomes an argument.

Fine by me if it never gets discussed on AZ again. So far, so good in 2020.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 3, 2020

Dan White said:
I may regret saying this but many of us started out "discussing." When you are met with nothing but "it's already been explained," or "you have to go to the table and try it, you idiot," and so on it becomes an argument.

Lookin' to bait, troll, and lie again, huh Dan? Anything to start sh*t! NOBODY was called an idiot! You aren't going to regret anything because this was all planned out and what you wanted from the post.

Go back between 2012 through 2014 or 2015 and there were a ton of explanations on our part as well as videos done my Neil and others at the table explaining it and doing it.

What happened was no discussion but arguing and attacking by the Fab 4 that it was impossible and didn't work.

Here's the entire playlist of videos done by Stan. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUW8lTFYIYGN2AjHKN23M-RQ 103 VIDEOS FOR FREE!

Do your thing...come out with a negative response and blast it like always and attack me. Or take it to the table and do what he's saying. But we know that is never going to happen in the next three reincarnations.

Patrick Johnson · Apr 3, 2020

SpiderWebComm said:
...there were a ton of explanations on our part...

The definition of "explanation" was/is the primary bone of contention. The system's supposed mystical "connection to the 2:1 geometry of a pool table" is a good example. The word "perception", often invoked to cover gaps in the "explanation", is another. It's a classic faith vs. reason standoff.

pj
chgo

Dan White · Apr 3, 2020

SpiderWebComm said:
Lookin' to bait, troll, and lie again, huh Dan? Anything to start sh*t! NOBODY was called an idiot! You aren't going to regret anything because this was all planned out and what you wanted from the post.

Ummm, you do realize the irony of your making this accusation in a thread written BY YOU called, "Help Dan White" in which you make fun of my elbow. Help me out here. Is that called baiting or is it simply passive aggressive?

Go back between 2012 through 2014 or 2015 and there were a ton of explanations on our part as well as videos done my Neil and others at the table explaining it and doing it.

What happened was no discussion but arguing and attacking by the Fab 4 that it was impossible and didn't work.

Here's the entire playlist of videos done by Stan. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUW8lTFYIYGN2AjHKN23M-RQ 103 VIDEOS FOR FREE!

Do your thing...come out with a negative response and blast it like always and attack me. Or take it to the table and do what he's saying. But we know that is never going to happen in the next three reincarnations.

OK, let's say I'm giving you a bad shake and we haven't been dealing with the CTE supporters in good faith. Let's put all that behind us and start over on a more scientific and objective footing:

Stan presented a hypothesis that when CTE Pro1 is used, throw DOES NOT increase or decrease when the speed of the shot is changed. Stan performed an experiment to demonstrate this amazing feature of his aiming method and presented it on youtube. I reviewed this data provided by Stan and noted something that clearly didn't support his hypothesis. I made my own youtube video to show what I was talking about and asked for input on AZ.

Chances are that you were banned at the time and so maybe you never had an opportunity to give your perspective on Stan's hypothesis. Here's your chance to give us an example of how you answer questions so directly and clearly and it is only the bad faith of the CTE "haters" that causes the arguing. Here's the link. Help us understand how CTE Pro1 prevents the ball from throwing different amounts when the video obviously shows that it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zjQoNfXcck&feature=youtu.be

SpiderWebComm · Apr 4, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
The definition of "explanation" was/is the primary bone of contention. The system's supposed mystical "connection to the 2:1 geometry of a pool table" is a good example. The word "perception", often invoked to cover gaps in the "explanation", is another. It's a classic faith vs. reason standoff.

pj
chgo

How many thousands of times can you say the same thing over two decades?

You don't use it and will never use it so what's it to you? You don't pray to God either (classic faith) because you're an atheist. (your reason). I could care less what YOU think about either other than you being a royal pain in the ass doing this every day.

Will there ever be a point in your life when you just stfu? If not, why not? Nobody is being saved who uses it but you are CTE OWNED!

SpiderWebComm · Apr 4, 2020

Dan White said:
Ummm, you do realize the irony of your making this accusation in a thread written BY YOU called, "Help Dan White" in which you make fun of my elbow. Help me out here. Is that called baiting or is it simply passive aggressive?

There's no irony. You took it off point with your last post. You're no longer bringing up your screwball elbow and nobody cares. You've switched it over to what you always do, CTE.

OK, let's say I'm giving you a bad shake and we haven't been dealing with the CTE supporters in good faith. Let's put all that behind us and start over on a more scientific and objective footing:

Stan presented a hypothesis that when CTE Pro1 is used, throw DOES NOT increase or decrease when the speed of the shot is changed. Stan performed an experiment to demonstrate this amazing feature of his aiming method and presented it on youtube. I reviewed this data provided by Stan and noted something that clearly didn't support his hypothesis. I made my own youtube video to show what I was talking about and asked for input on AZ.

Chances are that you were banned at the time and so maybe you never had an opportunity to give your perspective on Stan's hypothesis. Here's your chance to give us an example of how you answer questions so directly and clearly and it is only the bad faith of the CTE "haters" that causes the arguing. Here's the link. Help us understand how CTE Pro1 prevents the ball from throwing different amounts when the video obviously shows that it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zjQoNfXcck&feature=youtu.be

You're right, I didn't see this video but am not going to waste my time now either.

Go directly to some other sources like Stan, Tyler, or Cookie for your explanations. But lets face it, doesn't matter what they say just like you've convinced yourself that your roving elbow IS the problem that needs addressed
when you've been told by Lou, me, and others that it's a by product of something else and somewhere else causing it. But, you know it all and I'm glad you do because you'll be on a wasted fruitless snipe hunt for the rest of your life focusing on an elbow during the stroke.

Now as far as CTE goes since you think it has so many holes, DON'T USE IT!
Isn't that a novel suggestion? But you also are CTE OWNED!

Dan White · Apr 4, 2020

I thought so... Here is your accusation:

SpiderWebComm said:
Go back between 2012 through 2014 or 2015 and there were a ton of explanations on our part as well as videos done my Neil and others at the table explaining it and doing it.

What happened was no discussion but arguing and attacking by the Fab 4 that it was impossible and didn't work.

So I pose a perfectly relevant and appropriate video in response to Stan and look for discussion in a discussion forum. Here's what I get in reply:

SpiderWebComm said:
You're right, I didn't see this video but am not going to waste my time now either.

Go directly to some other sources like Stan, Tyler, or Cookie for your explanations. ...

Now as far as CTE goes since you think it has so many holes, DON'T USE IT!
Isn't that a novel suggestion? But you also are CTE OWNED!

Great answer!

I rest my case.

SpiderWebComm · Apr 4, 2020

Dan White said:
So I pose a perfectly relevant and appropriate video in response to Stan and look for discussion in a discussion forum. Here's what I get in reply:

A discussion that leads to nowhere other than trying to trap somebody into screwing up with verbiage so it can be reported for a ban. No thanks. If someone else wants to respond then you've succeeded in your quest. Don't give up hope yet just because I don't want to play your game.

Don't stop with one video. Here are 103 videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUW8lTFYIYGN2AjHKN23M-RQ
Knock yourself out. Analyze all of them and they'll all be just as flawed as the analyzation of your screwball elbow being the main cause of missing. I am well aware of the elbow moving in the stroke but it isn't the CAUSE as you see it, it's an EFFECT from elsewhere. Doesn't sink into your skull though regardless of who tells you.

I rest my case.

We already determined a week or so back that you had zero skills as an attorney. But it doesn't stop you from trying to imitate one. A pool instructor is another occupation you shouldn't try to imitate. Stick to chemicals.

Dan White · Apr 4, 2020

SpiderWebComm said:
We already determined a week or so back that you had zero skills as an attorney. But it doesn't stop you from trying to imitate one. A pool instructor is another occupation you shouldn't try to imitate. Stick to chemicals.

Like I said, I rest my case.

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