This rejected shot should count IMO, what say you?

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
You guys and your fears of slippery slopes....how do you guys get out of bed in the morning without having the shakes?

There is more than one way of looking at this, sir.
..you don't want to win by your opponent's misfortune...
...but if you were playing me when the ball came back out of the pocket...
....I would turn down your offer of mercy....
...because I don't want to win THAT way.
Still feel holier than me?
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pt,
Are you so prideful that you would turn your nose up at a gracious gesture? See -- two can play that game.

I've made no moral judgements here but you're beginning to.

The ball spitting out of the pocket on a normal shot falls into a different category in my mind then a skid or a table roll off. Those latter things are expected misfortunes associated with the game. A ball coming out of the pocket on a perfectly struck ball is not. That's just how I see it. I imagine others could see it differently without risking eternal damnation.

Going back to my fantasy....it's 14-14 and Efren and I have just about concluded a perfect match. Neither of us have missed a ball and both have perfect TPA's. He's running out the final rack a out to conclude this perfect match, when a perfectly hit 8 ball spits back out of the pocket. Here, I suppose I could shout with glee, and run up to the table and shake my head about his poor luck or I could do something else.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
pt,
Are you so prideful that you would turn your nose up at a gracious gesture? See -- two can play that game.

I've made no moral judgements here but you're beginning to.

The ball spitting out of the pocket on a normal shot falls into a different category in my mind then a skid or a table roll off. Those latter things are expected misfortunes associated with the game. A ball coming out of the pocket on a perfectly struck ball is not. That's just how I see it. I imagine others could see it differently without risking eternal damnation.

Going back to my fantasy....it's 14-14 and Efren and I have just about concluded a perfect match. Neither of us have missed a ball and both have perfect TPA's. He's running out the final rack a out to conclude this perfect match, when a perfectly hit 8 ball spits back out of the pocket. Here, I suppose I could shout with glee, and run up to the table and shake my head about his poor luck or I could do something else.

I don't know if I call it pride....but I like to compete like a warrior....
...no quarter asked for or given.
There is no honor in winning when your opponent helped you.

I used to give a man serious weight years ago at snooker...only $10 a game.
...I always came out ahead,,,,but never any ill feelings...I quit playing for a year...
...started playing him to get back into the game....he killed me with the old spot...
...he didn't want the money, couldn't believe how bad I played...I told him...
..."Tony, if you don't take the money, I'll burn it right in front of you...you have to let me
be a man."
When I got back into stroke, I wouldn't play him any more...he took the joy out of competing.
...but I used to give him 10% of my action when he was around...he was a good guy...
...but when I play, I play hard.

incidently, if you google 'eight ball comes back out of a pocket', you'll see how Efren handles
that situation....it happened to him and his opponent two times in a row.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
You can take all this equipment failure stuff even further. Say you shoot a slow roll to a corner pocket and the ball clearly rolls off. It was on the perfect path, but then possibly hit where the slate is joined, or the table is off balance or whatever and it deviates and he ball rattles or hits the rail.

The ball was supposed to be pocketed? You can just put it down and say "well that ball was in". Equipment failure isnt an excuse to put a ball down that isnt currently down.

If you cant see the difference in a ball going in the hole and a missed shot i dont know what to tell you
Jason
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member

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mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Also not quite sure who you think you are demanding i answer a question, and especially a question that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Jason

A ball goes in a pocket and comes out.
Does it count?
 

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PocketSpeed11

AzB Long Member
Silver Member
Watched a match were Jason Shaw and his opponent were putting a ball into the pocket they were shooting into just to prevent this very thing. This would act as a shock absorber . It was in Europe I think...saw it on youtube

It's possible it was a match later this tournament. Jayson was doing this a lot after it happened.
 

PocketSpeed11

AzB Long Member
Silver Member
The ball was "pocketed" period. Those of you comparing it to skids and almost making a ball have issues, there is no comparison. It also doesnt matter how hard he hit it and didnt need to or whatever else you can come up with to make yourselves feel better about it.

If it were my game even hill hill, he would be shooting the 9.

If it disturbes other balls then maybe a rerack.

Jason<---not a slippy slope with his integrity

Sure you might think you'd be demonstrating great integrity, but what about the integrity of the game? The rules are the rules, right?
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Apparently "ending up in the pocket" is not a good enough definition of "pocketed" for some people.
 

Lesh

One Hole Thinkifier
Silver Member
Yeah it counts.

Ive been asked to watch shots and rule on things like this. If the ball "LOOKS" like it hits the bottom of the pocket and then spits back out under any circumstance, then yeah... it counts. I've even had the ball come back out and disturb other balls on the table... I simply ruled the pocketed ball to be removed from the playing surface and continue play without altering any of the other affected balls.

I realize that there is plenty of room to nit-pick here and I really don't care. It's what is right and everyone knows it. Especially the people that would argue the loudest about how it isn't right. In a sanctioned tournament however... we would have to go with the pocketing rules in the BCA Rule Book.

Right on,

Lesh
 
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mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
BCA Rule Book on Pocketed Balls

BCA Rule Book
http://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55

3.11 POCKETED BALLS
A ball is considered pocketed if as a result of an otherwise legal shot, it drops off the bed of the table into the pocket and remains there. (A ball that drops out of a ball return system onto the floor is not to be construed as a ball that has not remained pocketed.) A ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the table bed is not a pocketed ball.

Sanctioned or not we have to follow the rules.

Unless we are playing in your basement with "House Rules".

Even then "The Rules" need to be laid out before play.

Yeah, it does not count.


Yeah it counts.

Ive been asked to watch shots and rule on things like this. If the ball "LOOKS" like it hits the bottom of the pocket and then spits back out under any circumstance, then yeah... it counts. I've even had the ball come back out and disturb other balls on the table... I simply ruled the pocketed ball to be removed from the playing surface and continue play without altering any of the other affected balls.

I realize that there is plenty of room to nit-pick here and I really don't care. It's what is right and everyone knows it. Especially the people that would argue the loudest about how it isn't right. In a sanctioned tournament however... we would have to go with the pocketing rules in the BCA Rule Book.

Right on,

Lesh
 

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Lesh

One Hole Thinkifier
Silver Member
BCA Rule Book
http://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55

3.11 POCKETED BALLS
A ball is considered pocketed if as a result of an otherwise legal shot, it drops off the bed of the table into the pocket and remains there. (A ball that drops out of a ball return system onto the floor is not to be construed as a ball that has not remained pocketed.) A ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the table bed is not a pocketed ball.

Sanctioned or not we have to follow the rules.

Unless we are playing in your basement with "House Rules".

Even then "The Rules" need to be laid out before play.

Yeah, it does not count.


Playing in my tournament it counts.

BCA rules are different (as I alluded to in my post) - I don't have tournaments in my basement... don't have a basement (Florida). I'm so happy to have given you this opportunity. It was a reach, but you muscled through to grab it. Awesome.

Now is where you retort about the insanity and stupidity of anyone willing to play in my tournaments.

Come get you some, son.

Lesh
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know if I call it pride....but I like to compete like a warrior....
...no quarter asked for or given.
There is no honor in winning when your opponent helped you.

I used to give a man serious weight years ago at snooker...only $10 a game.
...I always came out ahead,,,,but never any ill feelings...I quit playing for a year...
...started playing him to get back into the game....he killed me with the old spot...
...he didn't want the money, couldn't believe how bad I played...I told him...
..."Tony, if you don't take the money, I'll burn it right in front of you...you have to let me
be a man."
When I got back into stroke, I wouldn't play him any more...he took the joy out of competing.
...but I used to give him 10% of my action when he was around...he was a good guy...
...but when I play, I play hard.

incidently, if you google 'eight ball comes back out of a pocket', you'll see how Efren handles
that situation....it happened to him and his opponent two times in a row.


Do you not see that we actually see the game the same way?

I ask not for a quarter either. If my opponent does everything in his power to pocket a ball and he performs a perfect stroke and the ball goes in and spits back out -- then in my mind he made the ball.

I understand the rules say otherwise, and I don't necessarily think they need to be changed. I just don't think rules should be so iron-clad that they remove all opportunity for gentlemanly play. I would not expect this move to be reciprocated and I would hold no ill will toward an opponent who doesn't see it as I do.

I just wouldn't want to win like that because I to -- like to compete like a warrior.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
BCA rules are different (as I alluded to in my post).

Lesh

If this is true could you please list the differences?

I'm not hating, just looking for the truth.

If there are differences in the rules how do know when to use which rule?

Are there other rules that are different?

This could lead to a lot heated arguments.

Thank God, Cool Heads prevail here on AzB.
 

Lesh

One Hole Thinkifier
Silver Member
If this is true could you please list the differences?

I'm not hating, just looking for the truth.

If there are differences in the rules how do know when to use which rule?

Are there other rules that are different?

This could lead to a lot heated arguments.

Thank God, Cool Heads prevail here on AzB.


No no dear fellow.... BCA official rules differ from my off-the-cuff, unfair, arbitrary rules. You know... the right call. LOL

There are lots of situations in amateur play that just try my patience and need for justice. Sure, rules are rules, but exceptions can be made.

Lesh
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Let it ride

No no dear fellow.... BCA official rules differ from my off-the-cuff, unfair, arbitrary rules. You know... the right call. LOL

There are lots of situations in amateur play that just try my patience and need for justice. Sure, rules are rules, but exceptions can be made.

Lesh

I'm in agreement with you and the previous poster on the matter of being gracious and accepting the shot like a gentleman.

But only if an opponent agrees to accept the shot.

If you start arguing to your opponent about accepting the shot......

Well, that's Bad Form old chap.

Just like a gimme in golf.

In golf, a gimme is a shot that the other players agree can count automatically without being played. When a player has only a very short putt left to play, other players may grant a gimme (i.e., one stroke is counted), but the ball is not played.
 

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