Who really cares!

8pack · Apr 8, 2018

You hear an awful lot on how do the pro's do it.(Aiming) What makes you think that their not doing what your doing? Are there shots you hit really well? If so, who cares how some one else does it.

If you haven't spent enough time at the table , I'm betting nothing gonna work well for you.

There are no shortcuts in pocketing balls an if there was one, " IT" has a lot to do with pocketing balls an it ain't about aiming, its the stroke.

(an you already new that )

Its awesome to be open minded, doesn't mean that alone will get you better. When does it stop? Some of these system are so far from what you need, its actually making the shot harder then what it really is. Now take the system you use, who made that work for you? You did, no one else.

I posted something in one of the other threads about learned perception an the the starting point is a key foundation getting it all started with not to many replies

. Not to bash know one here but your arguing about peanuts when comes to how its done. (not a pro but i can make a ball..

Stan , CJ have it right, an while i don't agree with everything thats been said about the 2 systems, they both are about perception, an they have the foundation for a good starting point.( something you can build off with feedback) I bet they spent many hours figuring out how to put it all together.

BTW I'm glad pocketing balls takes a little work, its worth it in the end. Missing isn't a failure of my aiming its my lack of learning an teaching my eyes. Paying attention to missing is just as important to making the ball, its actually the cure to make your game better.

Peace! Anthony

Patrick Johnson · Apr 8, 2018

I like sandwiches mostly.

BC21 · Apr 8, 2018

8pack said:
You hear an awful lot on how do the pro's do it.(Aiming) What makes you think that their not doing what your doing? Are there shots you hit really well? If so, who cares how some one else does it. If you haven't spent enough time at the table , I'm betting nothing gonna work well for you.

There are no shortcuts in pocketing balls an if there was one, " IT" has a lot to do with pocketing balls an it ain't about aiming, its the stroke. (an you already new that )

Its awesome to be open minded, doesn't mean that alone will get you better. When does it stop? Some of these system are so far from what you need, its actually making the shot harder then what it really is. Now take the system you use, who made that work for you? You did, no one else.

I posted something in one of the other threads about learned perception an the the starting point is a key foundation getting it all started with not to many replies. Not to bash know one here but your arguing about peanuts when comes to how its done. (not a pro but i can make a ball..

Stan , CJ have it right, an while i don't agree with everything thats been said about the 2 systems, they both are about perception, an they have the foundation for a good starting point.( something you can build off with feedback) I bet they spent many hours figuring out how to put it all together.

BTW I'm glad pocketing balls takes a little work, its worth it in the end. Missing isn't a failure of my aiming its my lack of learning an teaching my eyes. Paying attention to missing is just as important to making the ball, its actually the cure to make your game better.

Peace! Anthony

Paying attention....that is a great idea. If more players paid attention to their mistakes instead of complain or whine the table or bad rolls, they'd start seeing improvements in their game.

And I'm with you on the stroke too. No player will be a consistent shot maker if they can't strike the cb exactly where they intend to strike it, at least within one millimeter. I believe Mark Wilson called this the only real "secret" to playing great pool.

It's a good test of stroke accuracy. If you have a CB with a dot or circle on it, try stroking straight into the mark we with a freshly chalked cue. Do this several times, fresh chalk each time, and you'll see just how accurate your stroke is. If it's not good and consistent, you will not be a consistent shot maker, regardless of how you aim, system or not.

lfigueroa · Apr 9, 2018

BC21 said:
Paying attention....that is a great idea. If more players paid attention to their mistakes instead of complain or whine the table or bad rolls, they'd start seeing improvements in their game.

And I'm with you on the stroke too. No player will be a consistent shot maker if they can't strike the cb exactly where they intend to strike it, at least within one millimeter. I believe Mark Wilson called this the only real "secret" to playing great pool.

It's a good test of stroke accuracy. If you have a CB with a dot or circle on it, try stroking straight into the mark we with a freshly chalked cue. Do this several times, fresh chalk each time, and you'll see just how accurate your stroke is. If it's not good and consistent, you will not be a consistent shot maker, regardless of how you aim, system or not.

I think it's important to look at mistakes and misses in the right light.

When you miss an  easy one, you can't get all pissy about the fact you missed, instead you have to "listen" closely because the game is telling you that you don't know the  shot as well as you thought you did, and/or, that you have a flaw in your  mechanics that has just manifested itself.

The mistakes and misses are signposts the game lays out for the player. Its the game's way of quietly telling you what you need to work on so that eventually, you'll have the tools and skills to make  it further up the mountain. 

When you blow a hanger, you have to try and remember it. Not only the shot setup but  what position you were trying to play and whether you over-cut or undercut  the shot. It's also worth remembering where the cue ball ended up and whether or not "you got there." Afterwards, you set the shot up and practice it.  Usually, what I've found when I miss an easy one, is that the position play  I was trying to achieve had something to do with the miss. Maybe I was  unsure how the CB would react, or I was uncomfortable shooting the  shot at that particular speed, or the cue ball may have been in a spot that  required making a bridge that I was uncomfortable with. Or it could be  something else. Over time I've corrected several fundamental flaws in my  game, all because of: missing the easy ones. 

I guess I like to consider the misses the game's way of helping me... you  just have to quiet down long enough to hear the advice, instead of howling  at the sky

 

Lou Figueroa

BC21 · Apr 9, 2018

lfigueroa said:
I think it's important to look at mistakes and misses in the right light.

When you miss an  easy one, you can't get all pissy about the fact you missed, instead you have to "listen" closely because the game is telling you that you don't know the  shot as well as you thought you did, and/or, that you have a flaw in your  mechanics that has just manifested itself.

The mistakes and misses are signposts the game lays out for the player. Its the game's way of quietly telling you what you need to work on so that eventually, you'll have the tools and skills to make  it further up the mountain. 

When you blow a hanger, you have to try and remember it. Not only the shot setup but  what position you were trying to play and whether you over-cut or undercut  the shot. It's also worth remembering where the cue ball ended up and whether or not "you got there." Afterwards, you set the shot up and practice it.  Usually, what I've found when I miss an easy one, is that the position play  I was trying to achieve had something to do with the miss. Maybe I was  unsure how the CB would react, or I was uncomfortable shooting the  shot at that particular speed, or the cue ball may have been in a spot that  required making a bridge that I was uncomfortable with. Or it could be  something else. Over time I've corrected several fundamental flaws in my  game, all because of: missing the easy ones. 

I guess I like to consider the misses the game's way of helping me... you  just have to quiet down long enough to hear the advice, instead of howling  at the sky  

Lou Figueroa

Exactly. Good post, Lou. It's the same way with everything in life.....we can listen and learn, or we can assume we already know everything and other people's advice is nothing but blowhard information. I prefer to pay attention and learn as much as possible.

8pack · Apr 9, 2018

BC21 said:
Paying attention....that is a great idea. If more players paid attention to their mistakes instead of complain or whine the table or bad rolls, they'd start seeing improvements in their game.

And I'm with you on the stroke too. No player will be a consistent shot maker if they can't strike the cb exactly where they intend to strike it, at least within one millimeter. I believe Mark Wilson called this the only real "secret" to playing great pool.

It's a good test of stroke accuracy. If you have a CB with a dot or circle on it, try stroking straight into the mark we with a freshly chalked cue. Do this several times, fresh chalk each time, and you'll see just how accurate your stroke is. If it's not good and consistent, you will not be a consistent shot maker, regardless of how you aim, system or not.

Ive struggled with the stroke , the most discouraging feeling. You no where to shoot but yet cant get it there correctly.

8pack · Apr 9, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
I like sandwiches mostly.

Take you your smart a$$ over to the sandwiches forum an talk about sandwiches all you want. If cant you say something using your common sense, then dont post.

Your another guy who talks it all up but actually cant make a ball.

I could be wrong but doubt it.

Straightpool_99 · May 7, 2018

I saw a rather interesting theory on the "break from life" snooker channel on youtube. He was going over the problems with the quarter ball system and how certain people have only a limited number of angles they play, but they are themselves not aware of it. The rest of the video was fairly innocuous IMO, but that point kind of stuck with me. I actually believe this is true of many people. Some people seem to always miss certain shots that I would call "off angle" shots, and even in several tries they don't seem to be able to quite dial them in consistently.

When you watch the really great players, it's always amazing to watch how cleanly the balls go in. The pros always seem to hit the heart of the pocket when they're on, while amateurs like myself only do that when in dead stroke and very inconsistently to boot. My stroke is good, but sometimes I can't really tell down to 1mm where to aim. This is also the major problem with aiming systems. How are you going to teach someone to recognize 1/64 parts of the cueball (for instance) and present it in a reasonable package. It can't be done. Unless you "live" on the table, that level of precision will likely be unavailable to you, or you'll at least be "guessing" for many shots which a pro would KNOW for certain how to play. If you taught someone to always hit the closest 1/8th that would certainly help many amateurs, but it simply isn't good enough for pro level play.

Low500 · May 8, 2018

Straightpool_99 said:
I saw a rather interesting theory on the "break from life" snooker channel on youtube. He was going over the problems with the quarter ball system and how certain people have only a limited number of angles they play, but they are themselves not aware of it. The rest of the video was fairly innocuous IMO, but that point kind of stuck with me. I actually believe this is true of many people. Some people seem to always miss certain shots that I would call "off angle" shots, and even in several tries they don't seem to be able to quite dial them in consistently.
-----------

BC21 · May 8, 2018

Straightpool_99 said:
I saw a rather interesting theory on the "break from life" snooker channel on youtube. He was going over the problems with the quarter ball system and how certain people have only a limited number of angles they play, but they are themselves not aware of it. The rest of the video was fairly innocuous IMO, but that point kind of stuck with me. I actually believe this is true of many people. Some people seem to always miss certain shots that I would call "off angle" shots, and even in several tries they don't seem to be able to quite dial them in consistently.

When you watch the really great players, it's always amazing to watch how cleanly the balls go in. The pros always seem to hit the heart of the pocket when they're on, while amateurs like myself only do that when in dead stroke and very inconsistently to boot. My stroke is good, but sometimes I can't really tell down to 1mm where to aim. This is also the major problem with aiming systems. How are you going to teach someone to recognize 1/64 parts of the cueball (for instance) and present it in a reasonable package. It can't be done. Unless you "live" on the table, that level of precision will likely be unavailable to you, or you'll at least be "guessing" for many shots which a pro would KNOW for certain how to play. If you taught someone to always hit the closest 1/8th that would certainly help many amateurs, but it simply isn't good enough for pro level play.

Being able to aim within 2mm on the object ball end would result in excellent aiming skills. This isn't difficult, but it does require a consistent stroke.

A 2mm aim difference gives a 2° change in shot angle. Most shots fall with a 2° margin of error for the ob to hit the pocket. Naturally, the farther the ball is from the pocket the smaller the margin of error becomes.

The shot angle is always relative to the fractional aim in millimeters. In other words, a 1mm difference in aiming will create a 1° change in shot angle. A 4mm aim difference results in a 4° change in shot angle, which is a a little thicker than a 1/16 fractional aim difference. If the OB is farther than about 16" from the pocket you'll need to be more accurate than 4mm on the aim because the margin of error will be smaller than 4°. At 32" from the pocket the margin of error is around +/- 2°, which means our aim must be within 2mm of the correct aim for the shot.

A 7mm difference in ob aim is a 1/8 fractional aim difference. Sticking to this accuracy level means you'll be playing within a 7° margin of error, which is excellent for any shot within 9 or 10 inches from the pocket. But of course we want more accuracy as the ball gets farther from the pocket. This is the fine tuning that your brain accomplishes automatically with enough practice. And when facing a shot that is 5ft from the pocket, your brain will recognize the nearest 1/8 fractional aim line and automatically fine tune it thinner or thicker based on experience.

The fine tuning could be on the cb end or the ob end of the shot. It depends on how you make it work. No aiming system is magic. They all require a certain level of experienced judgement in order to fine tune the process and make it work more accurately.

Patrick Johnson · May 8, 2018

BC21 said:
Being able to aim within 2mm on the object ball end would result in excellent aiming skills. This isn't difficult, but it does require a consistent stroke.

A 2mm aim difference gives a 2° change in shot angle. Most shots fall with a 2° margin of error for the ob to hit the pocket. Naturally, the farther the ball is from the pocket the smaller the margin of error becomes.

The shot angle is always relative to the fractional aim in millimeters. In other words, a 1mm difference in aiming will create a 1° change in shot angle. A 4mm aim difference results in a 4° change in shot angle, which is a a little thicker than a 1/16 fractional aim difference. If the OB is farther than about 16" from the pocket you'll need to be more accurate than 4mm on the aim because the margin of error will be smaller than 4°. At 32" from the pocket the margin of error is around +/- 2°, which means our aim must be within 2mm of the correct aim for the shot.

A 7mm difference in ob aim is a 1/8 fractional aim difference. Sticking to this accuracy level means you'll be playing within a 7° margin of error, which is excellent for any shot within 9 or 10 inches from the pocket. But of course we want more accuracy as the ball gets farther from the pocket. This is the fine tuning that your brain accomplishes automatically with enough practice. And when facing a shot that is 5ft from the pocket, your brain will recognize the nearest 1/8 fractional aim line and automatically fine tune it thinner or thicker based on experience.

The fine tuning could be on the cb end or the ob end of the shot. It depends on how you make it work. No aiming system is magic. They all require a certain level of experienced judgement in order to fine tune the process and make it work more accurately.

Interesting stuff.

FYI, here's a table showing the amount of "pocket slop" (in degrees) for different shot distances and pocket sizes.

pj
chgo

View attachment 95092

BC21 · May 8, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
Interesting stuff.

FYI, here's a table showing the amount of "pocket slop" (in degrees) for different shot distances and pocket sizes.

pj
chgo

(P.S. I think each 2mm of aim difference = ~4° of cut angle difference - but who's counting? )

View attachment 95092

That's a gem of a chart! Thanks.

And I'm not sure how you're calculating angle difference. But lets say we aim center to center, straight on. That's zero degrees. Now if we aim center cb to 2mm left of center ob we'll have a shot angle of.....asin (2mm/57.15mm), where 57.15 is the diameter of the ball , or better yet the distance between ghostball center and ob center. The angle generated is 2.0°.

It changes a little as the cut gets thinner, but it remains fairly close to every 1mm difference in aim being a 1° change in shot angle. For example, using a 1/2 ball shot (30°), aiming 2mm thinner than a 1/2 ball would give us a 32.3° shot. Aiming 2mm thicker than a 3/4 hit would produce a 12.4° shot instead of 14.4°.

Once speed and spin and throw get mixed into it none of this matters, only to show that we don't have to be as precise as we think when aiming.

Patrick Johnson · May 8, 2018

BC21 said:
I'm not sure how you're calculating angle difference. But lets say we aim center to center, straight on. That's zero degrees. Now if we aim center cb to 2mm left of center ob we'll have a shot angle of.....asin (2mm/57.15mm), where 57.15 is the diameter of the ball , or better yet the distance between ghostball center and ob center. The angle generated is 2.0°.

You're right - I substituted radius for diameter. My bad. I removed that comment to avoid confusing your message.

pj
chgo

BC21 · May 8, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
You're right - I substituted radius for diameter. My bad. I removed that comment to avoid confusing your message.

pj
chgo

I'm the best at thinking too quickly and making mistakes in my thought process. So I understand completely. In fact, your comment forced me to draw it out on paper in order to make sure I wasn't messing things up in my head. Anyhow, thanks for the chart on pocket error. It's not something easy to find online unless you take the time to make your own.

AtLarge · May 8, 2018

BC21 said:
... A 2mm aim difference gives a 2° change in shot angle. ... a 1mm difference in aiming will create a 1° change in shot angle. A 4mm aim difference results in a 4° change in shot angle ... A 7mm difference in ob aim is a 1/8 fractional aim difference.

BC21 said:
...It changes a little as the cut gets thinner, but it remains fairly close to every 1mm difference in aim being a 1° change in shot angle. ...

Good that you put that qualifier in the second post I quoted. If the cut is thin, the change in cut angle for a change in aim can be a lot more than 1° per 1mm. But you have to get way out there for the big changes. Even at a quarter-ball aim, another 2mm changes the cut angle by just 3.1°.

One Pocket John · May 8, 2018

Thanks for the "Pocket Slop Chart" Pat.
Good information to know.

Shines new light on "right about there should sink the OB"

I'll look at long cue shots a little more differently from now on.

John

Patrick Johnson · May 8, 2018

One Pocket John said:
Thanks for the "Pocket Slop Chart" Pat.
Good information to know.

Shines new light on "right about there should sink the OB"

I'll look at long cue shots a little more differently from now on.

John

My pleasure.

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. "Pocket size" changes with approach angle.

2. Margins of error in the chart are for total slop (both sides of center pocket), so your aim can only be off by half that on the OB. For instance, a 6-foot shoot into a 4 7/8-inch pocket has 2 degrees of "slop" - 1 degree left of center pocket and 1 degree right of center pocket. So you only have 1mm of "aiming slop" on the OB each way (1mm = 1 degree cut) for a relatively straight shot.

pj
chgo

justadub · May 9, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
I like sandwiches mostly.

I like sammichs, and beer, and surely cannot make a ball.

I also enjoy reading and interacting with others who enjoy this particular (and peculiar) hobby...

nine_ball6970 · May 9, 2018

8pack said:
Ive struggled with the stroke , the most discouraging feeling. You no where to shoot but yet cant get it there correctly.

Digicue Blue will put you on the right track if you are willing to put the time in.

nataddrho · May 10, 2018

8pack said:
Ive struggled with the stroke , the most discouraging feeling. You no where to shoot but yet cant get it there correctly.

I'm convinced that everybody is better at aiming then they think. The inconsistencies in their stroke make them hunt for something to blame.The DigiCue at least gives you a reference point so you're not treading water for the rest of your pool career, and frees you to become aware of the thousands of other skills that you need to also work on in this difficult game.

Who really cares!

They call me 2 county !

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I see dead balls

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