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02-19-2016, 10:15 AM

Yeah!

What have the european pool players achieved with their much superior fundamentals?
  
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02-19-2016, 10:39 AM

It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
  
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02-19-2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
You've been here a whole month now. Where is it written that we are "all" focusing on fundamentals. We focus on lots of stuff, speed control, tangent line, banking, kicking, jumping, breaking, etc.

But when things fall apart, it's usually comes down to fundamentals. They are doing something wrong, even after your so-called "5 year" learning curve, that they need to either go back and fix, or quite possibly it was never fixed to begin with because they were unaware of it.

So, as they say, Lighten Up Francis


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02-19-2016, 10:49 AM

I can only point to Jack Nicklaus, arguably the greatest golfer of all time, who wrote in his autobiography, that he started off every year with a visit to Jack Grout his childhood teacher. They would start with a day of fundamentals, rehashing things he had been doing pretty effectively, for decades. This was done for no other reason than to assure that his foundation was still in tact.

I'm a trainer of salespeople by trade and I begin every session with a review of the sales model. My reps with 20+ years in the business tell me, unfailingly, that they appreciate this step because it helps them to refocus their brain on how to do something, not just doing it. They also tell me that they pick up a thing or two during it.

I start every practice session with a stroke drill. Not because I don't know how to make a stroke - I've made several million of them over the years - but just to ensure that I'm making them perfectly this time.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Some are placing more value on these than you. And that's okay. We all have to go with what works for us.


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02-19-2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
Your entire argument is based on assumptions. "I'm pretty sure...", "most of you probably...", "chances are...". How about you start a poll that asks how much time people spend on fundamentals and then you could form an opinion based on fact instead of assumption?


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02-19-2016, 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
Your entire argument is based on assumptions. "I'm pretty sure...", "most of you probably...", "chances are...". How about you start a poll that asks how much time people spend on fundamentals and then you could form an opinion based on fact instead of assumption?
I spent a couple of hours one time.. almost learned some, too.

A few friends have solid fundamentals and i kinda envy that. For me, i just hit the ball around. If im hitting em bad, i tuck in my elbow and force myself into a more deliberate kind of play. I can chicken wing, hop and one stroke with the best of em.
  
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02-19-2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
Pro golfers stop trying to hit the ball straight because perfection is basically unobtainable & if it is ever accomplished it is fleeting.

But, what else are instructors going to 'teach' & stress if not 'fundamentals'?

Many call themselves students of the game. Well student drivers do not have their licenses & can not drive a car on their own.

Like you say, how about learning how to play the game & by trying to do that as best as one can THEIR fundamentals will improve out of necessity.

A pro golfer can not consistently hit the ball straight & will never know in advance whether the ball will fall left or right...

So... they hit an intention shot where the ball intentionally falls left or right & they can plan for that & play better golf. Hitting that ball flight & what it takes to do that becomes THEIR fundamentals.

One can be a student or one can play the game. Players learn things all of the time. I'm 62 & have been playing for nearly 50 years since I was 13 & had a bit of enlightenment about a method yesterday.

Also, I think if one is using ONLY one of everything & the same every time they are really missing the boat.

I started when I was 13 & other than for the first few weeks I've never had to work on my 'fundamentals'. It's just not that difficult for the human mind & body to figure out what it takes to move a straight stick in a straight movement.

Now that said, if someone comes up with a contrived way to move the cue that is NOT natural then it will take work to accomplish that unnatural movement & some may perhaps never be able to do what is unnatural.

But that is an all together other topic...

or is it?

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

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02-19-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
I get your point but. I first decided to learn how to swing a cue 40+ years ago. In that time I've taken several lessons from highly qualified instructors. Yes I know the book fundamentals. Problem is once you get past that and develop a personal style which normally migrates away from the book, sooner or later, normally sooner you hit a wall that seemingly can't be scaled. I/we probably built that wall ourselves and personally I feel that's the time to go back to basics to work it out. Hopefully the next stage will not include whatever flaw caused the road block.

There's no Pro alive who isn't working on improvement. Yes some of that involves working out tough or new shots and spins but a lot of it is working out fundamental flaws you admit everyone has. Some of it is working out how to make what we may think is a flaw, work better. I'm not professing turning into a robot. There's several things in my game I'm not interested in changing. Gone there for years and came back. Sorry Harry. RIP

Last edited by 3kushn; 02-19-2016 at 11:10 AM.
  
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The answer to that is simple...
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The answer to that is simple... - 02-19-2016, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
Most people play for YEARS before they take the game seriously and that experience has trained their subconscious to use those bad habits and poor fundamentals that they developed during that time.

So when they develop hitches in their stroke, it's best to go back to the fundamentals to discover what that HITCH is...

Jaden
  
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02-19-2016, 11:19 AM

I hope everyone takes this to heart and stops working on their fundamentals. If everyone did that, I might just start entering some tournaments and have a real chance of winning something.
  
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02-19-2016, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip_dat_Quarta View Post
It looks like almost all arguments against my post relate to fundamentals being the foundation and you can't build a house on a bad foundation. (or something similar)

Well, I agree with that. But you must have missed my point. My point is not that poor fundamentals are acceptable. My point is you should have the fundamentals figured out within the first few years of playing.

I'm pretty sure 90% of the people in this forum having been playing for 5 or more years. So why are you still dwelling on fundamentals? Are you really that uncoordinated that you can't figure out how to consistently move your arm back and forth in a fluid motion? I doubt anyone is that uncoordinated so this leads me to believe that most of you guys are dwelling on your fundamentals in hopes of reaching perfection.

Most of you probably have 95% of the fundamentals correct and you are wasting all of your practice time focusing on that last little 5%. Forget about that and move onto something else. You will get much better.

If you spend your whole life building the foundation of your house you will never have a house to live in. Move on!

You know how many players would have never gone pro if they were still focused on perfecting their fundamentals?? At some point you have to move on...
Very well stated and worded, IMO Some of the best players in the world do not have what a lot these experts would call perfect fundamentals.

Everyone is different. EVERYONE is going to play pool in a different way. It aint rocket science,it's hittin round objects with a wooden stick. Sorry to get off topic,carry on,you are doing good,I think. John B.


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02-19-2016, 11:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Brian in VA View Post
I can only point to Jack Nicklaus, arguably the greatest golfer of all time, who wrote in his autobiography, that he started off every year with a visit to Jack Grout his childhood teacher. They would start with a day of fundamentals, rehashing things he had been doing pretty effectively, for decades. This was done for no other reason than to assure that his foundation was still in tact.

I'm a trainer of salespeople by trade and I begin every session with a review of the sales model. My reps with 20+ years in the business tell me, unfailingly, that they appreciate this step because it helps them to refocus their brain on how to do something, not just doing it. They also tell me that they pick up a thing or two during it.

I start every practice session with a stroke drill. Not because I don't know how to make a stroke - I've made several million of them over the years - but just to ensure that I'm making them perfectly this time.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Some are placing more value on these than you. And that's okay. We all have to go with what works for us.
Jack Nicklaus's 'fundamentals' were not the same as Arnold Palmer's or Gary Player's or Ben Hogan's or Lee Trevino's or Billy Casper's, etc.

The only thing in common among them all is that their position at impact was similar.

We are individuals & our bodies & movements are not the same. We are not cookies cut from the same cutter.

Once Nicklaus had his check up, he played golf.

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02-19-2016, 11:23 AM

Not just in pool, but in pretty much everything fundamentals are the foundation. Breathing is fundamental, like Miyagi said "No breathe, no life"
When you're slumping, or not playing well, sound fundamentals will see you through, or you can continue to bang around ridiculous shots and maybe they'll start to fall.
Ever watch different basketball players? (I mention basketball because it seems to be more prevalent there) The playground players do well to a certain point, they get by just on talent up to that point, but the players that have sound fundamentals, passing, dribbling, free throw shooting, good mechanics, etc... those are the people that 9 out of 10 times shine through. Passion may get you by sometimes, but knowledge, science, practice, those are the things that help you to excel.
If you have a good foundation all the other issues are fixable
  
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yes but it always helps to understand what the correct fundamentals are...
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yes but it always helps to understand what the correct fundamentals are... - 02-19-2016, 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
Jack Nicklaus's 'fundamentals' were not the same as Arnold Palmer's or Gary Player's or Ben Hogan's or Lee Trevino's or Billy Casper's, etc.

The only thing in common among them all is that their position at impact was similar.

We are individuals & our bodies & movements are not the same. We are not cookies cut from the same cutter.

Once Nicklaus had his check up, he played golf.
I had a friend who had had 9 surgeries by the time he was one and a half.

He had three vertebrae fused together, so he couldn't move like everyone else.

He asked me to teach him how to throw knives.

Now, the correct way to throw knives is similar to the correct way to stroke a cue. You want to move your arm straight back and straight forward releasing as consistently as possible.

This is why different knives have different typical distances that they are for. You can alter mechanics to vary it some, but that gets into more advanced knife throwing. This is also how the knife throwing booths rip you off. The guy on the other side of the table is 1-2 feet closer to the target, so he is set at the correct distance for the knives.

Since you are one to two feet farther away, you're less likely to get the knives to stick.

Anyways, I showed him the correct way to throw knives and he couldn't do it, his body didn't move that way. So I watched him and thought about it and told him to do it this way instead of that and blamo, he started sticking the knives 2 out of 3 times instead of 1 in 15...

So, yes, there is variance as to what mechanics work best for individuals, what stance, what stroke, etc...

But understanding what NEEDS to be done and needs to happen will lead to finding what's right for you, and often times that needs to be someone other than yourself...

Jaden
  
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02-19-2016, 11:48 AM

I guess it depends on what we are talking about. I do think some players tweak a bit too much. On forums I see a number of players talking about trying completely new stances and strokes, which is probably counter productive if done too often.

When I think about practicing and improving fundamentals, I think about tweaking and improving existing mechanics as opposed to changing them completely. So an adjustment to the stance to be more balanced, to get the cue on the line of the shot, or staying still while shooting, following through better. That kind of thing.

Surely if a player has alignment problems, or an inability to consistently hit the cue ball where they want they should spend time improving upon this?

Pros may have a variety approaches to the game, but the one thing they all have in common is that put the cue on the line of the shot and get the cue back to that line before or as they hit the cue ball. If you watch an overhead view of Bustamante, you can see his go through straight as he hits the ball. It's just his back stroke that is wonky.

Example, https://youtu.be/YAuN02xGpA4?t=12m42s


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Last edited by Cameron Smith; 02-19-2016 at 12:01 PM.
  
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