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01-17-2013, 02:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Sev View Post

So let me ask you. As per that study.
With 100,000,000 people owning firearms. Presumably keeping them in the home. Was there any where near 43 million deaths caused by gun accidents in the home?
Its a rough conversion I now going from 43 times to 43%. However 43 times is a 430% increase.
The above makes no sense whatsoever on any level, least of all mathematically

1. All the study (if it's exactly as described by sjb) is saying is that for every 10 times that a resident's gun is used in the home in connection with self defence there will be a corresponding 430 deaths of relatives/residents of the homes in which a gun was the weapon causing the death......or for every 100 times of the former there would be 4,300 of the latter......and so on.

2. Whether there were 43 deaths, 43k deaths, 43 million deaths or 430 million deaths actually caused by guns in the home is absolutely 100% irrelevant. However if there had actually been 430 million deaths in the home by guns, all that the the study's finding's suggest is that there would only have been a corresponding 10 million occasions in which a gun in the home was used by the home occupant in self defence.

3. On an more general math note, you are wrong in thinking that multiplying any given starting number by 43 results in a total which represents a 430% increase on that given starting number. For example 43 times 10 = 430, but 430% of 10 is only 43. Multiplying any given number by 43 actually gives you 4,300% of that number.

I'm not commenting on the study or passing any opinion on the thread subject, just this very strange (and very wrong) interpretation of what sjb described the study to say


Mike
  
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01-17-2013, 02:08 PM

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Originally Posted by memikey View Post
The above makes no sense whatsoever on any level, least of all mathematically

1. All the study (if it's exactly as described by sjb) is saying is that for every 10 times that a resident's gun is used in the home in connection with self defence there will be a corresponding 430 deaths of relatives/residents of the homes in which a gun was the weapon causing the death......or for every 100 times of the former there would be 4,300 of the latter......and so on.

2. Whether there were 43 deaths, 43k deaths, 43 million deaths or 430 million deaths actually caused by guns in the home is absolutely 100% irrelevant. However if there had actually been 430 million deaths in the home by guns, all that the the study's finding's suggest is that there would only have been a corresponding 10 million occasions in which a gun in the home was used by the home occupant in self defence.

3. On an more general math note, you are wrong in thinking that multiplying any given starting number by 43 results in a total which represents a 430% increase on that given starting number. For example 43 times 10 = 430, but 430% of 10 is only 43. Multiplying any given number by 43 actually gives you 4,300% of that number.

I'm not commenting on the study or passing any opinion on the thread subject, just this very strange (and very wrong) interpretation of what sjb described the study to say
Mike.
I knew my faulty line of mathematical conversion would draw you out.


Keep your head down and admire the shot.


COVFEFE!!



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01-17-2013, 03:33 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Yeah, huffy and puffy.....but that's fine - you've established that you're emotional on this and seeing as how it's relating to your daughter I can understand.

Choosing to get rid of a gun after having a kid because of the view that a gun in and of itself is supposedly dangerous is irrational.

A gun takes a person to function.....and you are of the mindset that somehow you would be unable to control a gun. When you can show me a gun all by itself shooting somebody I'll begin to accept your irrationality.

By your standard I can take SVB's pool cue and play like him......after all it's the tool and not the person using it right?

Nope, no steel bars - of course that is based on cost, area I live in, crime rates, aesthetics, other defense measures......you know, rational types of things - not because I feel the steel bars will come alive and kill me at some point in the future.

Next canard?
A "canard?" Really?

And my position is emotional, while yours is pure rationality? Please. Get over yourself, already.

If something gave you the idea that I believe I'm unable to control a gun and follow safe ownership practices, it's something you made up in your own mind. Of course I don't think a gun will come alive and kill me. Just like you don't think that steel bars would come alive and kill you.

But you know what? That doesn't make my choice irrational. Sometimes, in spite of all our best efforts, training and attention to detail, accidents happen. They happen in almost all aspects of our lives. Despite our most carefully laid plans, circumstances sometimes get the better of us.

Now, it's pretty hard to argue that having steel bars on your windows and doors doesn't provide a pretty darn good measure of protection against your home being invaded. It's also pretty clear that steel bars are inherently safe. Yet you choose not to provide that protection to yourself and your family. Why? Cost, crime rates in your area, aesthetics, other measures, etc. I see.

Hmmm. Seems you're leaving a lot to luck, aren't you? Are you just playing the odds because you live in a low crime area? Or is your family not as important to you as a few bucks and how pretty your house looks? All in all, I'd venture to say that steel bars on your doors and windows offers far more effective protection from home invaders than some guns in a safe. Granted, steel bars are not nearly as "manly," useful for hunting, or just plain fun, but then, this discussion is about personal safety in one's home, is it not?

Like I said before, if my circumstances were different, my choice of whether to have guns might be different as well. But my choice is no more irrational than your choice to not protect your home with steel bars. In fact, my choice is based largely on the same factors as yours.
  
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01-17-2013, 03:56 PM

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Originally Posted by sjb View Post
A "canard?" Really?

And my position is emotional, while yours is pure rationality? Please. Get over yourself, already.

If something gave you the idea that I believe I'm unable to control a gun and follow safe ownership practices, it's something you made up in your own mind. Of course I don't think a gun will come alive and kill me. Just like you don't think that steel bars would come alive and kill you.

But you know what? That doesn't make my choice irrational. Sometimes, in spite of all our best efforts, training and attention to detail, accidents happen. They happen in almost all aspects of our lives. Despite our most carefully laid plans, circumstances sometimes get the better of us.

Now, it's pretty hard to argue that having steel bars on your windows and doors doesn't provide a pretty darn good measure of protection against your home being invaded. It's also pretty clear that steel bars are inherently safe. Yet you choose not to provide that protection to yourself and your family. Why? Cost, crime rates in your area, aesthetics, other measures, etc. I see.

Hmmm. Seems you're leaving a lot to luck, aren't you? Are you just playing the odds because you live in a low crime area? Or is your family not as important to you as a few bucks and how pretty your house looks? All in all, I'd venture to say that steel bars on your doors and windows offers far more effective protection from home invaders than some guns in a safe. Granted, steel bars are not nearly as "manly," useful for hunting, or just plain fun, but then, this discussion is about personal safety in one's home, is it not?

Like I said before, if my circumstances were different, my choice of whether to have guns might be different as well. But my choice is no more irrational than your choice to not protect your home with steel bars. In fact, my choice is based largely on the same factors as yours.
The best house is one made of ICF's. Insulated concrete forms.
The house is bullet proof. Add bullet proof glass.
If you wish you can have plate steel on sliders with lockouts embedded in the walls at all the doors and windows.
The roof system could even be concrete if designed correctly.
Creating safe rooms and secret exits is also a snap.
Building in sniper ports like castles used to have is also possible.

Yup. You could make quite the fortress. Just dont lock a hostile in there with you.


Keep your head down and admire the shot.


COVFEFE!!



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01-17-2013, 04:17 PM

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Originally Posted by sjb View Post
A "canard?" Really?

And my position is emotional, while yours is pure rationality? Please. Get over yourself, already.

If something gave you the idea that I believe I'm unable to control a gun and follow safe ownership practices, it's something you made up in your own mind. Of course I don't think a gun will come alive and kill me. Just like you don't think that steel bars would come alive and kill you.

But you know what? That doesn't make my choice irrational. Sometimes, in spite of all our best efforts, training and attention to detail, accidents happen. They happen in almost all aspects of our lives. Despite our most carefully laid plans, circumstances sometimes get the better of us.

Now, it's pretty hard to argue that having steel bars on your windows and doors doesn't provide a pretty darn good measure of protection against your home being invaded. It's also pretty clear that steel bars are inherently safe. Yet you choose not to provide that protection to yourself and your family. Why? Cost, crime rates in your area, aesthetics, other measures, etc. I see.

Hmmm. Seems you're leaving a lot to luck, aren't you? Are you just playing the odds because you live in a low crime area? Or is your family not as important to you as a few bucks and how pretty your house looks? All in all, I'd venture to say that steel bars on your doors and windows offers far more effective protection from home invaders than some guns in a safe. Granted, steel bars are not nearly as "manly," useful for hunting, or just plain fun, but then, this discussion is about personal safety in one's home, is it not?

Like I said before, if my circumstances were different, my choice of whether to have guns might be different as well. But my choice is no more irrational than your choice to not protect your home with steel bars. In fact, my choice is based largely on the same factors as yours.
Yes, a canard - I didn't have steel bars on my house then take them off when I had a kid. Frankly your attempt at that comparison is just d u m m dumb. I'm very security conscious but I don't want to spend money with no real return.....and steel bars fall squarely in that category - I don't make lawyer money.

So you had a gun, then had a kid, and got rid of the gun. You got rid of the gun as a result of the having the kid. You did so for apparent safety reasons. But a gun by itself is not dangerous. So either you gave in to emotion and made an irrational decision or you feel you cannot responsibly have a gun around a kid. It really is just that simple.

It's curious that you can't just come out and clearly say that you got rid of the gun because you thought having it in your house made it more dangerous....or did I miss that?
  
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01-17-2013, 04:55 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Yes, a canard - I didn't have steel bars on my house then take them off when I had a kid. Frankly your attempt at that comparison is just d u m m dumb. I'm very security conscious but I don't want to spend money with no real return.....and steel bars fall squarely in that category - I don't make lawyer money.

So you had a gun, then had a kid, and got rid of the gun. You got rid of the gun as a result of the having the kid. You did so for apparent safety reasons. But a gun by itself is not dangerous. So either you gave in to emotion and made an irrational decision or you feel you cannot responsibly have a gun around a kid. It really is just that simple.

It's curious that you can't just come out and clearly say that you got rid of the gun because you thought having it in your house made it more dangerous....or did I miss that?
What's curious is why you refuse to take me at my word, and instead insist that you are the one who knows my true motivations.
  
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01-17-2013, 04:59 PM

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Originally Posted by sjb View Post
What's curious is why you refuse to take me at my word, and instead insist that you are the one who knows my true motivations.
Can you summarize your word for me in your next post?
  
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01-17-2013, 05:14 PM

Steel bars did a great job for my grandmother at her house. She refused to move out of her neighborhood. Had lived there for nearly 60 years. Its just not the same neighborhood it was when my grandparents were in their 20's.

Those bars were on the actual house and not the attachment they built some years back. That attachment and garage had been broken into half a dozen times at least, but thankfully each time they were unable to gain entrance to the main house.

My grandfather was an armed man that's for sure, until one day a young, ignorant, destructive and curious me grabbed grandpas enormous key ring and popped the lock on the box underneath the bed and graciously handed my grandmother their arsenal. Looking back its was funny but at the time quite scary. That was the last of them having guns in the house.

Those bars were ugly but they did the job.

After their death though I did find another gun my grandfather stashed in a dial safe. Can't blame him. Maybe they compromised.
  
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01-17-2013, 06:20 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Can you summarize your word for me in your next post?
If you'd been paying attention, you wouldn't need Cliff Notes.

At some point in this thread, I'm sure I said that I made a decision that not having guns would be safer for my family. You've made clear that you find that to be an irrational decision. Fine, that's your opinion.

But you also conclude that the only reason I made that decision is because I "either gave in to emotion" or I felt I couldn't "responsibly have a gun around a kid." Well, on those counts you are just wrong. More than one of my priorities in life, and how I live my life, changed when I had a child to be responsible for. Deciding that gun ownership, and raising my daughter around guns, were not among the most important of those priorities were a couple of them. View it however you choose, though, because you will no matter what I say.

But consider this about yourself. You say that it is irrational to choose not to keep guns in one's home. You justify it by saying it provides defense from home intruders. At the same time, you can't deny that properly installed steel bars over the doors and windows of your home provides an even more effective deterrent to home invasion. Yet you choose not to so equip your home because there's not a good enough return on your money. Surely you're not putting a price on your family's safety, are you?

Or maybe you are. It's rational thinking, after all. Why spend that money when odds are, it's not going to pay off? Spend it on some guns instead. Surely that will pay off.
  
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01-17-2013, 09:00 PM

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Originally Posted by sjb View Post
If you'd been paying attention, you wouldn't need Cliff Notes.

At some point in this thread, I'm sure I said that I made a decision that not having guns would be safer for my family. You've made clear that you find that to be an irrational decision. Fine, that's your opinion.

But you also conclude that the only reason I made that decision is because I "either gave in to emotion" or I felt I couldn't "responsibly have a gun around a kid." Well, on those counts you are just wrong. More than one of my priorities in life, and how I live my life, changed when I had a child to be responsible for. Deciding that gun ownership, and raising my daughter around guns, were not among the most important of those priorities were a couple of them. View it however you choose, though, because you will no matter what I say.

But consider this about yourself. You say that it is irrational to choose not to keep guns in one's home. You justify it by saying it provides defense from home intruders. At the same time, you can't deny that properly installed steel bars over the doors and windows of your home provides an even more effective deterrent to home invasion. Yet you choose not to so equip your home because there's not a good enough return on your money. Surely you're not putting a price on your family's safety, are you?

Or maybe you are. It's rational thinking, after all. Why spend that money when odds are, it's not going to pay off? Spend it on some guns instead. Surely that will pay off.
I didn't say not keeping guns in one's home is irrational - I did say it is irrational to already have a gun and to then get rid of it when you have a kid.....because now all of a sudden the gun becomes dangerous. And it was you after all that cited a flawed study to support this idea......that whole 43 times more likely thing you tossed out earlier - remember that? But frankly what I really think is the worst is that you gave up the ability to protect your priceless family from deadly harm.......I would never do that and in my opinion as a man it amounts to a dereliction of duty. Again, not being derogatory but that's how I see it.

And back to the steel bars canard huh? Let me break it down for you since I know security, defense and planning probably a million times better than you - steel bars are a minimal deterrent, they are a passive deterrent, they will not help stop a home invasion, and if someone is home when that home invasion happens you can't defend yourself with those steel bars, they can also be a hazard in case of a fire, they don't retain their value, they're not portable, they can't help defend me when I'm out in town. The comparison is just stupid, it really is. However I'll tell you what - you buy them and pay for the installation and I'll put them on my house.....sound fair to you?

And again it's not an either or thing......millions of kids are around guns and somehow they manage to survive. So why exactly did you not want you daughter around guns? Because they're dangerous right? You wanted to minimize risk to her right? And you know what - those kids exposed to guns by responsible adults tend to grow up to be responsible gun owning adults.

I once cross examined a cop on the stand in court who gave me a BS ticket in Lawton, OK years ago....it was pretty fun. I firmly believe if I had you on the stand on this I'd tear you a new asshole.
  
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01-17-2013, 10:02 PM

I pulled over on the street in San Francisco once to read a map. It was summer and I had the window down. All of the sudden a large imposing figure appeared at my window. My friend Jon leaned forward from the back seat and pointed his 9 MM Browning at the guy and told him to 'back the f*** off" as the guy walked away we spotted the gun he was carrying.

I have no doubt our legally purchased weapon saved our lives from this thug with his (highly likely) illegal weapon.

Its easy to claim you are against guns until a gun saves your life.
  
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01-18-2013, 04:49 AM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
I didn't say not keeping guns in one's home is irrational - I did say it is irrational to already have a gun and to then get rid of it when you have a kid.....because now all of a sudden the gun becomes dangerous. And it was you after all that cited a flawed study to support this idea......that whole 43 times more likely thing you tossed out earlier - remember that? But frankly what I really think is the worst is that you gave up the ability to protect your priceless family from deadly harm.......I would never do that and in my opinion as a man it amounts to a dereliction of duty. Again, not being derogatory but that's how I see it.

And back to the steel bars canard huh? Let me break it down for you since I know security, defense and planning probably a million times better than you - steel bars are a minimal deterrent, they are a passive deterrent, they will not help stop a home invasion, and if someone is home when that home invasion happens you can't defend yourself with those steel bars, they can also be a hazard in case of a fire, they don't retain their value, they're not portable, they can't help defend me when I'm out in town. The comparison is just stupid, it really is. However I'll tell you what - you buy them and pay for the installation and I'll put them on my house.....sound fair to you?

And again it's not an either or thing......millions of kids are around guns and somehow they manage to survive. So why exactly did you not want you daughter around guns? Because they're dangerous right? You wanted to minimize risk to her right? And you know what - those kids exposed to guns by responsible adults tend to grow up to be responsible gun owning adults.

I once cross examined a cop on the stand in court who gave me a BS ticket in Lawton, OK years ago....it was pretty fun. I firmly believe if I had you on the stand on this I'd tear you a new asshole.
Well, I don't see much point in going much further with this discussion, since you only seem interested in listening to yourself. But let me finish with just a few things.

First, I don't need guns to define myself as a father or a man, or to care for and protect my family. If you do, it's your right to make that choice.

Second, I've more than held my own in face-to-face challenges with expert witnesses, and trial and appellate judges in ten different states and three different federal circuits in matters involving tens of millions of dollars. But, hey, congratulations on besting an Okie cop in a one-horse town over a speeding ticket.

Finally, before you get too far down your road of self-congratulatory smugness about how how right and how rational you are, let me remind you who won our bet on the recent presidential election. As I recall, you had a lock, with entire GOP field. You owe me lunch.
  
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01-18-2013, 06:10 AM

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Originally Posted by OneIron View Post
I honestly have no problem with folks who choose not to have guns. It's their choice and I would defend that choice, without questioning their motivation. But I firmly believe that law abiding citizens have the right to own any type of weapon without government interference.

Live and let live.
Only the real gun nutters, WHO VOTE FOR GUN PLAY AS THE NORM, would disagree with you.

What a radical you are....live and let live....very radical.

Jeff Livingston
  
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01-18-2013, 07:48 AM

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Originally Posted by sjb View Post
Well, I don't see much point in going much further with this discussion, since you only seem interested in listening to yourself. But let me finish with just a few things.

First, I don't need guns to define myself as a father or a man, or to care for and protect my family. If you do, it's your right to make that choice.

Second, I've more than held my own in face-to-face challenges with expert witnesses, and trial and appellate judges in ten different states and three different federal circuits in matters involving tens of millions of dollars. But, hey, congratulations on besting an Okie cop in a one-horse town over a speeding ticket.

Finally, before you get too far down your road of self-congratulatory smugness about how how right and how rational you are, let me remind you who won our bet on the recent presidential election. As I recall, you had a lock, with entire GOP field. You owe me lunch.

First - there never was a point to begin with - you think guns are dangerous and I don't. And yeah - I'm not really interested in a bunch of irrational tap dancing and flawed justifications to try and push the idea that guns in the hands of citizens are a bad thing......which was kind of the point of this thread to begin with. But this thread is publicly illustrative of just how widespread the anti-gun movement has become......and again, it's interesting to see how it has influenced normally fairly rational people.

Second - to address yet another straw man of yours.....I don't define myself with guns. I do define myself by being a pretty good person, a successful person in my field, being productive and fairly self-sufficient, being a contributing member of society beyond myself, and being able to take care of and defend my family. The last two don't seem to apply to you, certainly the last one, which is fine.....but what is irrational is how you arrived to that point. And that is your view that guns are dangerous. To think that is your prerogative, good for you, but to elevate that to taking action based on a flawed idea and voluntarily neutering your ability to defend yourself and your family is just irrational.

Third - congratulations on doing lawyer stuff, that's great. But in the end it all comes down to two competing ideas whatever the venue....and with this idea you're on the wrong side. I think you recognize that and which is part of why you can't simply come out and publicly say what your posts betray - which is that you believe guns are dangerous......and on top of that should not be widely and readily available for citizens to use. Again, that's what you're basically saying with this thread of yours.

Fourth - to address another straw man of yours......I've been quite polite and rational with you unlike how I deal with some others here. I have made an effort to not get too personal because I knew you'd get emotional as soon as the obvious with your daughter got mentioned. So smug - no, pragmatic - yes. I can go there and dig down and make it personal if you insist which is what you have been doing.......but I see that as a sign of you with a losing case. What next......the race card? Come on PJ, oops, I mean SJB, I'm sure if you fully give in to your sense of moral superiority you can fit it in somehow.

Fifth - as to the election and rationality......that's a great example. America just re-elected an administration with a demonstrated history of making just about everything worse and very little to no interest in leading to make it better. America just figuratively said "thank you sir may I have another?" And that's rational? This example is worse than your steel bars example......come on, you can do better than that - perhaps you need to get advice on examples from an Okie cop in a one horse town.

Sixth - yeah, I owe you, I bet on rationality and lost. I think of it as a lesson that was learned by me and quite a few others.......and the world's foremost example that when you rob Peter to pay Paul you can always count on Paul's vote.
  
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