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RichSchultz
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08-21-2019, 09:47 AM

By the way folks, I always shout “DEFENSE!” immediately after I shoot one.

I have nothing to hide and I trust both scorekeepers to mark it.
  
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08-21-2019, 09:49 AM

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Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
T
They would rather your team go home sore than have the lingering buzz be about the team that maybe even won the event, who knows, being sandbaggers and nothing was done about it.

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Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.


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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 09:52 AM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.
All you bashers remind me of the kid that sat beside me in Calculus. He’d say “calculus is stupid”. I’d tell him “no, you just aren’t able to understand it”.

Recurring theme in this thread. Very few people actually understand how the league works. It’s on you to learn their ways, and not on them to cater to your flawed interpretation of how things should work in “your world”.
  
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08-21-2019, 09:53 AM

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Originally Posted by RichSchultz View Post
By the way folks, I always shout “DEFENSE!” immediately after I shoot one.

I have nothing to hide and I trust both scorekeepers to mark it.
Same here!

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.
Uncalled for.
  
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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by jokrswylde View Post
Same here!



Uncalled for.
I wonder if these people are pissed because they can’t get a Big Mac at Burger King....
  
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APA Operator
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08-21-2019, 10:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
The form doesn’t “raise” their handicap. It’s an acknowledgment that this player has the ability to play at a higher ranking than their current handicap. There is no penalty for declaring a player a rank higher than they currently play at. They don’t instantly raise them. This is all addressed at the captains meeting prior to play. Did you attend it?
Yeah, they do. But when considering DQ, the cert process is considered. If five went up and zero certed up, that's gonna hurt you. The part that breaks your case is when captains and players come in here and say in one breath "we're all about improving" and say in the next breath "we had two months to practice between the WQ and the Championship, and we didn't think anyone improved" and top it off with things like "teaching stance and stroke" and "several people played the best I've ever seen them play" (APA hears that last one from EVERY team it DQs). The story just doesn't jive. Are you honest people who were just negligent with the form? Maybe, but five up is a LOT. There are two things I'd like to clear up. 1) Honest teams CAN be DQed. Perhaps, if APA believes it as has been stated here, the DQed team/players will get relief from the suspensions. 2) The money from the DQed team goes to the teams it knocked out of the tournament, and those teams can get invited back next year. It actually COSTS APA money to DQ a team. Those of you who say "follow the money" should chew on that for a while.
  
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Bic D
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08-21-2019, 10:22 AM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
All you bashers remind me of the kid that sat beside me in Calculus. He’d say “calculus is stupid”. I’d tell him “no, you just aren’t able to understand it”.

Recurring theme in this thread. Very few people actually understand how the league works. It’s on you to learn their ways, and not on them to cater to your flawed interpretation of how things should work in “your world”.
Why would you assume the kid didn't understand it? I took calculus, passed it and still thought it was stupid.

People are stating their opinions based on their knowledge of league works. You are assuming that no one on this board understands how a league works. You are stating your opinion as a matter of fact.
  
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erhino41
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08-21-2019, 10:26 AM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
Which is why no self respecting pool player should dignify their organization.
Yup. I begrudgingly play apa nine ball on one of my two pool nights because the pool hall that is 15 mins door to door from my house is only open for apa. The other night I drive 40 mins into portland and play with the rest of the killers. I don't expect too much from it, just like the "extra" practice.

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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 10:34 AM

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Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Yup. I begrudgingly play apa nine ball on one of my two pool nights because the pool hall that is 15 mins door to door from my house is only open for apa. The other night I drive 40 mins into portland and play with the rest of the killers. I don't expect too much from it, just like the "extra" practice.

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Must be a slow day in the “you kids get off my lawn” chat group.
  
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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 10:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Bic D View Post
Why would you assume the kid didn't understand it? I took calculus, passed it and still thought it was stupid.

People are stating their opinions based on their knowledge of league works. You are assuming that no one on this board understands how a league works. You are stating your opinion as a matter of fact.
I’m not assuming anything. Their lack of knowledge of how the league works is out there in plain black and white, in every one of their posts.

Getting back to calculus now....I’m tired of engaging the angry old man club.
  
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  (#221)
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08-21-2019, 10:44 AM

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Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
To be certain, from the start, I do believe the actual players involved when they say that their intentions were good from the get go and through all of their competitions. By the letter of the rule you were in the wrong, even though it was no fault of your own.

The apa has a major handicap manipulation problem. You could say they are fighting a war against it, that is the actual scale of it. I can't tell you the number of nonchalant conversations I have heard about keeping innings up and keeping handicap levels where they are. So many that it seems some don't even recognize this as sandbagging. Now there are also a lot of teams that assuredly know that this is against the rules, but the risk is worth the reward to them.

It really seems you guys were an innocent casualty of a war that must be fought. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I do hope something good comes of this and maybe a lot of open communicating may ease some of the damage done.

It's a private organization and everything done is on their terms. They care more about seeming tough on sandbaggers than they do about seeming unfair, as much as that sucks.

Image is the biggest thing here. I think you did yourselves no favors by live streaming all of your matches. Not to say it was wrong, as I have already started I believe it was all in good faith. Perception and publicity are two very, very important things to a company.

When you have a team stepping up to the challenge and beating teams, fair and square, that aren't, those teams tend to want to blame everyone but themselves. So when you have, say, seven teams that you beat running around the room whining about how your 2 plays like a 3 and your 4 plays like a 5 and so on and so forth, that gets a bit of attention. Now couple with all that buzz a live stream on which you noted comments about players appearing to be better than they are, even if the judgement is biased and untrue, you have, in their eyes, a bit of a fire to put out.

They would rather your team go home sore than have the lingering buzz be about the team that maybe even won the event, who knows, being sandbaggers and nothing was done about it.

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This is where the APA loses me. They have a “Mathematical, objective handicapping system”...so whining and complaining shouldn’t influence it. Yet almost all of the apa supporters in this thread talk like the APA makes a decision to avoid whining or to appease whiners. Or watch a team/player and ‘make’ a judgement. A judgement isn’t math.

Is the system objective or isn’t it?


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08-21-2019, 11:04 AM

I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b
  
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08-21-2019, 11:14 AM

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Originally Posted by WillyCornbread View Post
I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b
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08-21-2019, 11:17 AM

This statement is eyeopening.

If they thought you weren't cheating, what was the basis for their ruling?

(if it was covered before I missed it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyCornbread View Post
I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b


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RichSchultz
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08-21-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyCornbread View Post
I just want to clarify that I understand the need for the system, I get why this looks terrible, and to some extent I understand why the APA may have felt they needed to DQ my team from the tournament.

I don't think it's fair or right, but from the moment that battle was lost in the appeal room my argument has moved to the fact that my players do not deserve a 2 year suspension from the league. If the review board stated (which they did) that they in fact did NOT think that we cheated, however we did have an unfair advantage in their eyes - then why are we punished the same as the people who bring a 2 that runs racks when the teams backs are against the wall.

What I'd like to see is for that same committee of people in that room to make 2 decisions, one regarding the DQ, and one regarding whether it was a dirty play and carries a 2 year ban.

The APA is fighting a war on sandbaggers, I deal with it weekly. If you read the messages from two years ago it's clear that I built a clean team. Wouldn't you want more teams like mine to help fight that war from the ground?

Anyway, I'm respectful of everyone's opinions here and I understand the issue and the ways it can be viewed. I appreciate the discussion and the support as well as the challenging opinions.

b
This I agree with...100%!

A separate committee meeting for the suspension is a fantastic idea. It should be considered AFTER the tournament is over.
  
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