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cookie man
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08-21-2019, 03:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
I was at Strokers last year for the US Amateurs. Nice room. Great kitchen!

We played a team from the same room. Bald guy, heavier set guy, and a long haired Latin guy with skull rings. They were a hoot to play. Great guys.
Lots of good people at strokers. I don't play regular league anymore, just masters. You sound about like me when it comes to people's names, lol.
  
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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 04:07 PM

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Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
Lots of good people at strokers. I don't play regular league anymore, just masters. You sound about like me when it comes to people's names, lol.
I was sick, tired, and the airline had lost my luggage and cues for 24 hours. Iím surprised I remembered my name at 8am that Monday morning.
  
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Tony_in_MD
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08-21-2019, 04:15 PM

I believe that the area can be very tough is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by BasementDweller View Post
Something tells me their whole area was most likely under rated. Sean is one of my favorite posters and he seems like a man of integrity so when I hear he was playing 8 ball as a 6 it makes me scratch my head a bit.


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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 04:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
I believe that the area can be very tough is a possibility.
A 100 ball runner is a 7. No matter what area they play in. I think the LO isnít paying attention, or has their finger on the override button.
  
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08-21-2019, 04:30 PM

The LO has that much control over their players skill levels? Is there an audit trail that can lead back to how the information is put into their system?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
A 100 ball runner is a 7. No matter what area they play in. I think the LO isnít paying attention, or has their finger on the override button.


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Shawn Armstrong
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08-21-2019, 04:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
The LO has that much control over their players skill levels? Is there an audit trail that can lead back to how the information is put into their system?
The LO for their league will be in hot water with head office. It doesnít just affect the team in question. Their LO has some Ďsplaining to do.
  
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08-21-2019, 08:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
Sean is a 100 ball runner at 14.1. .
Is this for real??


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08-21-2019, 09:00 PM

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Originally Posted by BasementDweller View Post
Wasn't finished....

So either Sean's game isn't as good as I though or his area is just out of whack. I believe he has run over 100 balls several times. I don't know any 100 ball runners that aren't 7's. So my hunch is these guys were on a bit of a rating island and what happened to them was due to this.
I like the APA, but it's not flawless. Over about 25 years, it's clear to me that the handicaps in a division can wander off in the high direction and once they get there, they stay there.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. In a division with no real 7s, the best 6 will become a 7 eventually. That player will have a very high win percentage as a 6, and the system will lift them up to a 7 once they have a few games out of their last 30 that are at 7 speed (even if they have other games at 5 speed). At that point, there's a weak 7 in the division, but the 7 won't drop unless he goes below 50%, which is a terrible win % for a 7. This will lift other players up: 4s will beat that 7 in a 5-2 race (much bigger than the correct 5-3 spot . . . 250% vs. 67%) with fairly low innings. That pulls the 4 up to a 5, but it's really because the 7 is weak. Now the over-handicapped 5 causes 2s and 3s to win a bit more often and they go up.

I could go on, but the point is that if there aren't good 7s in a division then handicaps tend to drift up. Conversely, even just a few good 7s, even better a super 7, will be enough to keep the 5s and 6s where they belong, which keeps the 3s and 4s where they belong, and so on. Therefore, a team that comes out of a division with stronger players will tend to have lower handicaps.

I can't know, but it is entirely possible that the team in question never sandbagged yet was legitimately under-handicapped.

The APA relies on innings, which has been reasonably good for them over the years. But it really doesn't fully equalize across disparate divisions. That's one of the strengths of FargoRate: a fairly small number of connections (even second order connections) among two disparate pools of players is enough to make the ratings in the two pools comparable. To my knowledge, the APA doesn't have anything like that. But they should.


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  (#294)
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08-21-2019, 11:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
What about the teams they eliminated from the tournament? Seems like more than one team got screwed, yes?
Yes. They should start over and replay the entire bracket. What if one of the first few teams they played was good enough to beat all the same people. But not so good as to get DQ'd.


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08-21-2019, 11:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
Ok. So, letís say I have a team that coasts through the regional circuit. Weíre drinking and having a good time. We have ranking established based on that lax attitude. You know, everyone else is doing the same thing, right? We get to regionals, decide to cut out the booze, and pay more attention. We qualify for Vegas. We decide to practice for 2 months to get ready. I really work with my 2s and 3s. We get to Vegas, and start blowing through the competition at our current ranks that are based on booze ball for 3 sessions. We win the event.

Fair, according to you?
That's how competitors who want to win would approach it.

I agree that they should play weekly like they plan to play in the tournament (drinking, not taking things seriously) but practicing for a big event is expected among people who want to win/succeed at something.

I usually have a few beers when I play leagues but when I go to nationals I probably won't have any because a lot of matches are early in the day and it IS a big event so I want to be as sharp as possible.

That doesn't seem like cheating to me. It seems like common sense.

Maybe the APA isn't for people who want to win and are willing to work for it.

Maybe it's only for people who want to win and are willing to sandbag for it.

In fact, I'm not going to call sandbagging cheating anymore in the APA. It's a legitimate strategy and something the APA expects players to do. Just like calling time out or playing defense. Handicap management is as important to the team captain as deciding which player to play against which player.

This team's big mistake was trying to do things 'honestly' with an impaired notion of what honestly means in the APA.

If they had only sandbagged like good little sandbaggers and missed a few shots here and there and upped the innings they would have been fine.


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08-22-2019, 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
Ok. So, letís say I have a team that coasts through the regional circuit. Weíre drinking and having a good time. We have ranking established based on that lax attitude. You know, everyone else is doing the same thing, right? We get to regionals, decide to cut out the booze, and pay more attention. We qualify for Vegas. We decide to practice for 2 months to get ready. I really work with my 2s and 3s. We get to Vegas, and start blowing through the competition at our current ranks that are based on booze ball for 3 sessions. We win the event.



Fair, according to you?
Yes. Not cheating is fair. So now a team that is not going to get shots at nine in the morning needs to declare that they believe they are at an unfair advantage because the other team can't control themselves? Do you even listen yourself?

F*ing nut hugger. I'm done with you.

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08-22-2019, 08:11 AM

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Originally Posted by bubbaandthem View Post
The final shot of the championship match of 8 ball team competition 2019. APA says there must have been something on the ball. What a crock

https://www.facebook.com/butch.thras...7356954773550/
Looked like table drift to me.


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08-22-2019, 08:48 AM

Im late to the party but read most of this stuff.

5 players is a lot but its NOT five skill levels. I think many people miss that part and the APA is the only ones that can actually see that.

Simple explanation - if a person is a 4 they are not simply a 4. There are 4s that are closer to a 3 and 4s closer to a 5. Lets say that its a 10 point scale.
Someone can be a "4.9" and move up to a 5.2. That is NOT a skill level.

I have seen more than one team have more than 2 players go up.

As a 7 and what I think is a good player and teacher I think many teams have 5 players that CAN go up with some help.
I just wonder why it didn't show before getting off the plane. They were in league. How did none of the 5 NOT go up at home.

I play APA one night per week. I hear more talk about sandbagging than I ever want to and have yet to see more than a few players that were truely sandbagging. Many people want to believe they are sandbaggers. show me a 7 that is playing and winning as a 4 or 5 and can keep it looking good. That is a sandbagger. i person that is a 5 but maybe could be a 5 is just a guy that thinks he can turn it on. There is so much he cant do or doesnt know.

Im not sorry the team got DQ'd as I think the only way to somewhat control is to punish but perhaps they can figure something out for the 2 year suspensions. Some lesser skilled players get caught up in the "everyones doing it mantra" and might not try their best some nights or even lose on purpose. Maybe they learn from less than a 2 year suspension. maybe not
  
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08-22-2019, 09:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
The LO for their league will be in hot water with head office. It doesnít just affect the team in question. Their LO has some Ďsplaining to do.
Yes I can get on board with that. When something like this happens (it's beyond "if") - The LO is in serious hot water.

The LO will then in turn talk to their region players about it (I've seen it) and you'll start to see great players from teams; anchor players... leave the APA.

Why?

Not because they are the sandbaggers, but because they know the people that stay are going to ask those questions of a better player.
They're going to tell the better player to break it down early (as noted in post above)
They're going to tell the better player to lay down/play more safes (as seen above)

And the better player, being the better player that he/she is - will walk from that, because that's what better players do.

They shouldn't be asked those questions of a team captain or any player on their team. So what do you get left after the smoke clears? Well, team captain is still there, working on his next handicap manipulate. All the SL-2's through 5's are still there, because it's about social connection, drinking a beer and laughing with friends.

The better player will spend his remainder of time in the practice table - avoiding Monday nights at all costs, only to get asked numerous times if he wants to "play on our team"........
  
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08-22-2019, 09:15 AM

Does anyone have a link to some of the matches from the DQ'd team? I asked google to no avail, and fb is foreign to me.
  
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