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08-21-2019, 11:55 AM

I may be in the minority... but I love long races over 3 days.

I also love best of 5 races.

Would prefer to see more "all around" matches as well.


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08-21-2019, 02:31 PM

SJM, I agree with your conclusions: Chang, Filler and SVB are all beasts, and any of them could win a match with another in this group and it would be a treat for the fans.

I think I understand your point about Chang not getting action at DCC, mainly that it's not like SVB can't get played. But you've brought it up a lot and I don't think SVB ducking him meant he was afraid to play. It might just be that he wasn't emotionally budgeted and prepared to bring what he knew he'd need to bring to have a chance at that time.

There are players I could play after a hard day of work. There are others I'd want a good night's sleep first. Then there are some I'd want to have a week's worth of ramp up to hit balls and get geared up to hit them with my absolute best punch. (Of course there are also players I won't play too ) If an opponent in the tough category offered me a game when I wasn't feeling ready for a fight I would pass at that time, but that isn't to say I wouldn't set up a game with them at some point.

I guess my point is that I agree that it's not as if SVB can't get played by anyone, but I also don't think that Chang can't get played by anyone either. It would be a really tough game for both of them and it's hard to line up because they'd both want to be feeling their best. If they both only feel their best 10% of the time then it might take a while for it to come runner-runner.

Finally, on that dream match, I'll say this- I would be worried for SVB. I am a big fan of SVB's. I think he played a large role in the elevation of the game over the last 10 years and dominated the sport during a time period that the game was already tough enough I didn't think it could be dominated.

But Chang is a machine. Most great players rely either on their explosive firepower (Shaw, Filler) OR their game management like defense, cue ball control, pattern play and lack of unforced errors (Alex or Ralf). And the break is huge too. SVB has a great break, great firepower, and really strong game management. But I think Chang might be the best in the world at not giving anything away.

SVB could rise to the challenge, but I do think Chang would be SVB's toughest opponent.
  
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08-21-2019, 03:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
SJM, I agree with your conclusions: Chang, Filler and SVB are all beasts, and any of them could win a match with another in this group and it would be a treat for the fans.

I think I understand your point about Chang not getting action at DCC, mainly that it's not like SVB can't get played. But you've brought it up a lot and I don't think SVB ducking him meant he was afraid to play. It might just be that he wasn't emotionally budgeted and prepared to bring what he knew he'd need to bring to have a chance at that time.

There are players I could play after a hard day of work. There are others I'd want a good night's sleep first. Then there are some I'd want to have a week's worth of ramp up to hit balls and get geared up to hit them with my absolute best punch. (Of course there are also players I won't play too ) If an opponent in the tough category offered me a game when I wasn't feeling ready for a fight I would pass at that time, but that isn't to say I wouldn't set up a game with them at some point.

I guess my point is that I agree that it's not as if SVB can't get played by anyone, but I also don't think that Chang can't get played by anyone either. It would be a really tough game for both of them and it's hard to line up because they'd both want to be feeling their best. If they both only feel their best 10% of the time then it might take a while for it to come runner-runner.

Finally, on that dream match, I'll say this- I would be worried for SVB. I am a big fan of SVB's. I think he played a large role in the elevation of the game over the last 10 years and dominated the sport during a time period that the game was already tough enough I didn't think it could be dominated.

But Chang is a machine. Most great players rely either on their explosive firepower (Shaw, Filler) OR their game management like defense, cue ball control, pattern play and lack of unforced errors (Alex or Ralf). And the break is huge too. SVB has a great break, great firepower, and really strong game management. But I think Chang might be the best in the world at not giving anything away.

SVB could rise to the challenge, but I do think Chang would be SVB's toughest opponent.
That's a creditable and well considered analysis.

Still, when it comes to action pool, Derby City is like the World Series. Greg Sullivan built the Derby in the image of Johnston City and veteran players like Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter have attested to how accurately Greg recreated the action scene once found at Johnston City. Players spend the entire year making sure they are ready to match up for high stakes when late January comes around. Few, if any, have played more action games at Derby City than Shane and he's minted money in action at the Derby over the years. You can be sure Shane was both ready for and hopeful for action.

Must concede that there could be a reason SVB wasn't up for a match at the Derby with Chang that we don't know about, but the truth is that Shane's form wasn't very good that week (tied 11th in bank pool, did not cash in the 10-ball after losing his match to JL Chang, tied 5th in one pocket, and tied 11th in nine ball). For a multiple winner of Master of the Table, this may have been Shane's worst Derby. I believe Shane WAS afraid to play, not because he didn't have a chance to win, but because he wasn't in his top form and knew he'd have to be to beat Chang, who'd won their race to 50 in May in Houston. I think Shane was exercising well-judged discretion in ducking Chang at the Derby, and you pretty much said that in your post when you suggested Shane wasn't ready for the fight.

The high stakes action scene is tough. It doesn't say "make the game" and you'll have a few days or more to prepare. It was true for a little while, but the TAR days are behind us. The reality is that the action games involving players who live outside of the US nearly always occur just before, during, or just after a major event in which all the top international stars play (Derby City, US Open 9-ball, China Open, All Japan Championships, World 9-ball, World 10-ball, World Pool Masters).

It's far from ideal, but a crude reality of our sport is that the top few are only found in the same place at the same time a handful of times per year. After all, the three guys that you and I both believe to be the cream of the crop could hardly live further away from each other, with one in South Asia, one in central Europe and the third in Midwestern America.

I think we'll get this match one of these days.
  
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08-21-2019, 04:45 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
That's a creditable and well considered analysis.

Still, when it comes to action pool, Derby City is like the World Series. Greg Sullivan built the Derby in the image of Johnston City and veteran players like Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter have attested to how accurately Greg recreated the action scene once found at Johnston City. Players spend the entire year making sure they are ready to match up for high stakes when late January comes around. Few, if any, have played more action games at Derby City than Shane and he's minted money in action at the Derby over the years. You can be sure Shane was both ready for and hopeful for action.

Must concede that there could be a reason SVB wasn't up for a match at the Derby with Chang that we don't know about, but the truth is that Shane's form wasn't very good that week (tied 11th in bank pool, did not cash in the 10-ball after losing his match to JL Chang, tied 5th in one pocket, and tied 11th in nine ball). For a multiple winner of Master of the Table, this may have been Shane's worst Derby. I believe Shane WAS afraid to play, not because he didn't have a chance to win, but because he wasn't in his top form and knew he'd have to be to beat Chang, who'd won their race to 50 in May in Houston. I think Shane was exercising well-judged discretion in ducking Chang at the Derby, and you pretty much said that in your post when you suggested Shane wasn't ready for the fight.

The high stakes action scene is tough. It doesn't say "make the game" and you'll have a few days or more to prepare. It was true for a little while, but the TAR days are behind us. The reality is that the action games involving players who live outside of the US nearly always occur just before, during, or just after a major event in which all the top international stars play (Derby City, US Open 9-ball, China Open, All Japan Championships, World 9-ball, World 10-ball, World Pool Masters).

It's far from ideal, but a crude reality of our sport is that the top few are only found in the same place at the same time a handful of times per year. After all, the three guys that you and I both believe to be the cream of the crop could hardly live further away from each other, with one in South Asia, one in central Europe and the third in Midwestern America.

I think we'll get this match one of these days.
How much action was Shane involved in at this past Derby?
  
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08-21-2019, 05:24 PM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
How much action was Shane involved in at this past Derby?
I will have to defer to others on this. I didn't spend that much time in the action room at this year's Derby, just a couple of hours here and a couple of hours there.

What I can say, though, is that Josh Filler was the one in seemingly continual action, playing, among other things, bank pool races to 10 with Shannon Murphy, a 10-ball race to 17 with JL Chang and a long bar table eight ball race with Corey Deuel.
  
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08-21-2019, 06:30 PM

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How much action was Shane involved in at this past Derby?
Shane does most of his gambling in the casinos and not on the pool table.

He has lost some big numbers at the casino tables
  
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08-21-2019, 06:41 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
I will have to defer to others on this. I didn't spend that much time in the action room at this year's Derby, just a couple of hours here and a couple of hours there.

What I can say, though, is that Josh Filler was the one in seemingly continual action, playing, among other things, bank pool races to 10 with Shannon Murphy, a 10-ball race to 17 with JL Chang and a long bar table eight ball race with Corey Deuel.
You keep saying he was ducking Chang, which to me, implies Shane was in action with other players.
  
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08-21-2019, 06:44 PM

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You keep saying he was ducking Chang, which to me, implies Shane was in action with other players.
It doesn't imply that at all. It simply notes that he declined Chang's offer to bet high for nine straight days at the Derby.
  
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08-21-2019, 06:52 PM

Well what we know as fact is the Chang team put it out months in advance they were coming to bet high , they didn’t just show up and say ok who wants to play
Mike Tyson said they all have a plan till they get punched in the mouth, so given the state of Shane’s game after such and his recent play which I will say his B game he made the right decision not to be spit roasted because that was the probable outcome he ain’t stupid
However his match with Shaw when he coasted in may have given him some confidence as it should he played some great pool for 2 days I’m one that believes when you got a big lead your coasting in foot off the peddle like Chang did against Shane
So it’s clear Chang ain’t running from he’s running to so hopefully Shane excepts a game and doesn’t do a raise the bet and game so high it won’t happen because he knows it won’t happen long been a move from guys who simply don't really want to play

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08-21-2019, 07:08 PM

Id like to see races to 13....best 5 out of 9 sets for 20Gs
...with a 2G side bet on every set

Now that I can watch the whole stream


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08-21-2019, 07:29 PM

One thing's for sure, if Chang and SVB play we'll know it's a legit money match.

I'd love to see it.


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08-21-2019, 08:04 PM

Seems like everyone is forgetting Dennis O. He has played Chang several times with mixed results (won and lost). After Filler beat Carlo he declined a chance to play Dennis. Shane has won and lost against him and I've seen him turn down Dennis for a Ten Ball game. IMO Dennis is still one of the top money players alive.

Nowadays Dennis keeps busy playing 30K-50K sets with high rolling gamblers, always giving up huge weight. He is way ahead at last count. I will be betting with both hands when he plays T-Rex next month, and imo Tony is by far the best American One Pocket player.

I like Dennis in an All Around against the world (and I'll bet on it if it ever happens)! Let them both play Ten Ball, Eight Ball, One Pocket, Banks and 14.1 and let's see who wins. I seriously doubt anyone wants a piece of that soft action. I will say on here that if a game like this is made against one of the "top three" I will bet up to 10,000 on Dennis, and I didn't stutter.


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08-22-2019, 01:36 AM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Seems like everyone is forgetting Dennis O. He has played Chang several times with mixed results (won and lost). After Filler beat Carlo he declined a chance to play Dennis. Shane has won and lost against him and I've seen him turn down Dennis for a Ten Ball game. IMO Dennis is still one of the top money players alive.

Nowadays Dennis keeps busy playing 30K-50K sets with high rolling gamblers, always giving up huge weight. He is way ahead at last count. I will be betting with both hands when he plays T-Rex next month, and imo Tony is by far the best American One Pocket player.

I like Dennis in an All Around against the world (and I'll bet on it if it ever happens)! Let them both play Ten Ball, Eight Ball, One Pocket, Banks and 14.1 and let's see who wins. I seriously doubt anyone wants a piece of that soft action. I will say on here that if a game like this is made against one of the "top three" I will bet up to 10,000 on Dennis, and I didn't stutter.

we get it, Dennis is your favorite player



Unless Tony learned how to keep his CB under control, Dennis should be a pretty decent favorite.
  
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08-22-2019, 04:41 AM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post

. I like Dennis in an All Around against the world
Agreed, I would like Django in that all around as well except I've never looked at his 14.1 game.

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08-22-2019, 06:56 AM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Seems like everyone is forgetting Dennis O. He has played Chang several times with mixed results (won and lost). After Filler beat Carlo he declined a chance to play Dennis. Shane has won and lost against him and I've seen him turn down Dennis for a Ten Ball game. IMO Dennis is still one of the top money players alive.

Nowadays Dennis keeps busy playing 30K-50K sets with high rolling gamblers, always giving up huge weight. He is way ahead at last count. I will be betting with both hands when he plays T-Rex next month, and imo Tony is by far the best American One Pocket player.

I like Dennis in an All Around against the world (and I'll bet on it if it ever happens)! Let them both play Ten Ball, Eight Ball, One Pocket, Banks and 14.1 and let's see who wins. I seriously doubt anyone wants a piece of that soft action. I will say on here that if a game like this is made against one of the "top three" I will bet up to 10,000 on Dennis, and I didn't stutter.
Nobody question's Orcullo's all-around game, which is as good as anybody's, but the debate has been about nine/ten ball, and while he's good enough to beat anyone in the world, I think Dennis is a slight underdog to Filler, Chang and Shane at nine/ten ball. Shaw, Orcullo, Biado, and Wu are, in my opinion, just a bit below the top three at nine/ten ball, but they are the ones that round out my top seven.
  
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