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Cornerman
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05-21-2019, 04:18 PM

I won't argue semantics, but as i understood the BC wording, to be an official high run, the run had to be part of a tournament or an exhibition. An exhibition has an official definition ( a display of a particular skill). The BCA presumably meant to differentiate practice sessions (which are clearly not meant for a display of a particular skill, but rather for a person's self-use for improvement) and exhibition. John's attempts this month are promoted as exhibition and certainly looks like they follow the definition.

Now, whether one has any faith in the BCA wording and intent or if anyone disagrees with the notion that Schmidt's attempts are an exhibition, that's really not the point.

If there's some agreement that Willie's is the "official record," then based on that (which is based on the BCA wording), then what is the official record for 9' tables? If we keep going back to "well, Willie's isn't the record," which is all fine and dandy, then my question has no answer. Surely, you all can be better than that.

Or I'll just say it myself without asking. If Chin and Engert's weren't exhibition settings, then John has the official 9' record based on the criteria that makes Mosconi's the record (tournament or exhibition).

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05-21-2019, 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
Or I'll just say it myself without asking. If Chin and Engert's weren't exhibition settings, then John has the official 9' record based on the criteria that makes Mosconi's the record (tournament or exhibition).
Agreed, Freddie, and I suspect he'll have the highest exhibition run record on any table pretty soon.
  
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05-21-2019, 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
John's current pursuits are practice runs, not exhibitions. They happen to be recorded, but that makes it somehow official?

(snip) But they are practice runs, no opponent, not really an exhibition. Where do you official exhibition hard-liners fall? Not that easy a question, is it?

All the best,
WW
I actually think it's an easy question and answer. The reason why the "exhibition or tournament" stipulation is in there is for documented evidence. You are suggesting that there would be have to be rules of the game or that an actual game has to be part of the high-run even in an exhibition. It might have been, for all I know, but I've never gave one thought in that direction. I've thought simply that it was the easiest way to ensure documented evidence was available. All the high-run attempts at DCC are not in a game situation. I can't imagine how any of those high runs would not be official.

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14.1 Run
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14.1 Run - 05-21-2019, 04:42 PM

There is no "official" definition of an exhibition. "exhibitionist" - yes

"Exhibition" - no

Lets go for "Guinness" (not to be confused with beer) "World Records"


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05-21-2019, 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I actually think it's an easy question and answer. The reason why the "exhibition or tournament" stipulation is in there is for documented evidence. You are suggesting that there would be have to be rules of the game or that an actual game has to be part of the high-run even in an exhibition. It might have been, for all I know, but I've never gave one thought in that direction. I've thought simply that it was the easiest way to ensure documented evidence was available. All the high-run attempts at DCC are not in a game situation. I can't imagine how any of those high runs would not be official.

Freddie
Freddie, in your selective cut and paste, I think you missed the important part of what I said. Here it is:

"John is doing practice runs. If he breaks 768, I think he has the record."

I suggested nothing with rules of the game or that an actual game has to be part of the high run. Others seem to have suggested that, over many threads. The notion of official seems in the minds of some, to be announced, with an opponent, and with a big crowd, and documented, etc, etc. I said the opposite, that John's counts, if done. That's it. Please don't misconstrue.

All the best,
WW
  
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Cornerman
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05-21-2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWing View Post
Freddie, in your selective cut and paste, I think you missed the important part of what I said. Here it is:

"John is doing practice runs. If he breaks 768, I think he has the record."

I suggested nothing with rules of the game or that an actual game has to be part of the high run. Others seem to have suggested that, over many threads. The notion of official seems in the minds of some, to be announced, with an opponent, and with a big crowd, and documented, etc, etc. I said the opposite, that John's counts, if done. That's it. Please don't misconstrue.

All the best,
WW
I think itís you that has misconstrued the question. I am talking specifically about what is the official run. If you donít consider Mosconiís 526 run as the official run, then this question isnít for you. This question is specifically for those who point to Mosconiís 526 run as the ďofficial high run,Ē and therefore Iím asking what would be the current official 9 foot run. Whether or not John hits 768 has nothing to do with the current official 9í high run.


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05-21-2019, 05:09 PM

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Originally Posted by kkdanamatt View Post
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
First, there is a tournament high run.
Then, a tournament high run continued until a miss.
Then, an exhibition (against an opponent) high run.
Then, a practice high run verified by witnesses and/or video.
Then, a practice high run unverified.
Oh, add into the mix: played on a 10'. 9', or 8' table.
YIKES!
Thanks.

It's a difficult subject, and it's why Roger Maris was hated for breaking Babe's record. That's Ruth, Not Cranfield...Though Cranfield was married to a Ruth.

If you look at recent threads on this subject, there's a comfort level on those who want to protect Mosconi as the record holder of all time, an "official" exhibition, documented, etc.

Now that video is available, and John is making a mighty effort, they are a bit constipated, those who don't want the record to be broken. And, having watched Mosconi play, there's a part of me who would want his legacy to remain as well. But now there is video as opposed to a crowd who would sign a document.

And, the notion of "official" is somewhat vague, isn't it. It goes from witnessed by a crowd of people, documented, to something announced and done.

The problem is not to those who want to witness a great new record. The problem is with those who want to preserve an older record. The story of "official" seems to be evolving a bit.

All the best,
WW
  
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05-21-2019, 05:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I think itís you that has misconstrued the question. I am talking specifically about what is the official run. If you donít consider Mosconiís 526 run as the official run, then this question isnít for you. This question is specifically for those who point to Mosconiís 526 run as the ďofficial high run,Ē and therefore Iím asking what would be the current official 9 foot run. Whether or not John hits 768 has nothing to do with the current official 9í high run.
I misconstrued nothing. I don't doubt the official high run is Mosconi's 526. I simply added a few footnotes that address other high runs, and the definition of an official exhibition. That's all.

All the best,
WW
  
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05-21-2019, 06:28 PM

It's tough for someone who does something without witnesses.

Only they know for sure.

100 is a real player, and 200 is a solid pro; in my book.....


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distinctions
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distinctions - 05-21-2019, 07:02 PM

Willie's is an official record mainly because someone saw the value of documenting it with plenty of witnesses, 22 I think, but that is offhand. 28 seems like it might be right too, maybe both numbers are wrong. I am working purely from memory. The affidavit is available on the web for the curious. A bunch of witnesses regardless, including the site owner and the referee. I have to suspect that some of those witnesses perhaps went away from the table to buy a beer or to dispose of a few. When an affidavit was waved around and there was a chance of being a part of some pool history the signers all jumped at the opportunity. That isn't to say I doubt the count or that there was anything shady on the table, I just question the witnesses viewing every moment. Overlapping witness reports have been looked down on in other instances.

There is also the question of if Willie set the record on an eight foot table or a super eight, a bit bigger. People that were there have claimed both. Whatever, but when trying to establish records for certain sizes I would think it matters. While I don't think it should ever go in the record books I do believe the higher run that Charlie Ursetti witnessed happened even if I can't spell Charlie's last name. He has been around big time pool enough I can't think he would damage his reputation over something as unimportant as this.

Even an exhibition such as Mosconi and others traveled putting on added a level of pressure not there when if you get in a tight spot after running a dozen or so you just start over. Video certified practice deserves recognition I'm just not sure how to record it. If somebody breaks the record in their basement with it videoed does that deserve the same recognition as someone doing the same thing in a pool hall or other public location? Why or why not? We have entered a new era with video so readily available. There is very good video editing software that is simple to operate now. It wouldn't take that much effort for someone dreaming of glory to cheat on a video.

I have questions. I don't have all the answers by a long shot!

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05-21-2019, 08:03 PM

If I was Appleton, it would have pissed me off to have someone scatter the balls on the table when I was still going at it.

Although, I'm sure it got under Bustamante's skin to watch his opponent run 200 straight, and keep shooting. I wouldn't have stopped his run though. He owned the table, in my book.


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05-21-2019, 08:16 PM

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Originally Posted by 9 Ball Fan View Post
If I was Appleton, it would have pissed me off to have someone scatter the balls on the table when I was still going at it.

Although, I'm sure it got under Bustamante's skin to watch his opponent run 200 straight, and keep shooting. I wouldn't have stopped his run though. He owned the table, in my book.
Wow, I was there and was grateful that Bustamante did it. So, by the way, was Darren, who needed to unwind before the final. After losing the final, to Hohmann I think, he told me that his "200 and out was the worst thing that could have happened," that he was spent after it.

Would you really have held up the stream table to have the run completed when it was time for the finals of the event? Since when are runs in competition completed and why would a player feel inclined, let alone compelled to keep shooting? In my first 35 years around straight pool, I didn't see a game winning run in competition continued even once. I've since seen it twice, once from Martin Kempter and once from Evgeny Stalev, but I disapproved of it on each occasion.
  
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05-21-2019, 08:25 PM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Willie's is an official record mainly because someone saw the value of documenting it with plenty of witnesses, 22 I think, but that is offhand. 28 seems like it might be right too, maybe both numbers are wrong.
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05-21-2019, 09:57 PM

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... Would you really have held up the stream table to have the run completed when it was time for the finals of the event? ...
The final match started about 1ĺ hours after that semifinal match ended.
  
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05-21-2019, 10:12 PM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
The final match started about 1ĺ hours after that semifinal match ended.
I'm just saying I wouldn't have stopped his run. He might be on his all time best run. Let him go, if he wants to. Not my call there, but I wouldn't have done it.


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