WHY? Thin shaft VS. Thick Shaft

SmoothStroke · Apr 16, 2015

JoeyA said:
Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

He is use to the shaft he is playing with.
Give him some time with the thin shaft (LD) and he won't skip a beat.
New shoes feel funny until your feet adjust to them.

When I switched from a 12.5 traditional shaft to a factory pre-cat 314 shaft I couldn't make one in a row with ball in hand.
Now I am up to 3 in a row.

You have to adjust to your tools, just like adjusting to table conditions. He who adjusts more quickly has the advantage.

Sincerely:SS

ENGLISH! · Apr 16, 2015

JoeyA said:
Patrick,
I'm not sure why I said it that way and I know you are a much better wordsmith especially in pool terms than myself. Sometimes I say things different ways so that everyone reading may understand it better but in this case I was probably more interested in emphasizing that the cue ball appears to swerve away from the object ball more so when using outside spin with an LD shaft than with a traditional shaft. I guess it's my limited vocabulary that is my failing.

JoeyA

Hi Joey,

I doubt that your vocabulary is limited. I think it comes down to a mind set.

For 45 years mine was focused on the swerve aspect as that is what I noticed at a very young age.

Now since going to playing more with TOI my mind set is focused more on the squirt aspect.

That is why I asked what I did earlier. If your guy is using a bit of outside, even if subconsciously the CB is not squirting as much into the ball as with the non LD shaft.

But you guys have it under control. I was just making the point of the mind set & focus & how it affects the language that we sometimes use.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

qbilder · Apr 16, 2015

I doubt it has much to do with squirt or swerve. Most players quickly & subconsciously adapt to correct. What I would be inclined to believe is that it's the change in diameter not fitting his bridge the way his muscle memory bridged his old shaft. 1.5mm doesn't seem like much on paper, but in a pool players bridge, it's the difference between a pencil & a log.

evis · Apr 16, 2015

This makes me think why some times I miss those cut shots using center ball with the Z2 shaft, is because the swerve will over cut or hit it fuller just a lil. I do notice aiming higher or lower on the CB accuracy goes up...It's not like I'm missing the ball by diamond, I'm just rattling them not hitting them clean in to the back of the pocket.

I know this is either an alignment issue, crowding the shot line, not clearing my body so I'm steering cue around my hip...or like Dr Dave said a vision thing, it could even be a weak bridge issue..I just know I hate it and it makes me want to kick puppies sometimes:wink:

I guess starting at the base of the cb would be best reference point for center

QUOTE=JoeyA;5153520]I have always cut balls better with a think shaft than a thin shaft. Other players in my area note the same thing. One good local player often switches cues on severe cut shots and uses the thinner shafts to cut balls.

JoeyA[/QUOTE]

JoeyA · Apr 16, 2015

Good hunting........

Good point evis,
I teach placing the cue tip at the bottom of the cue ball and also at the top of the cue ball to find the center of the cue ball. For those who have trouble finding the center of the cue ball, even with this information it is sometimes difficult to break an old bad habit.

Joe Tucker's device for finding the center of the cue ball might be what he needs.

I also like the point you make about aiming higher or lower, changing the CB accuracy, when using side spin. Speed of cue ball travel will also change the CB path minutely. There are a lot of things that change the cue ball's accuracy of path.

JoeyA

evis said:
This makes me think why some times I miss those cut shots using center ball with the Z2 shaft, is because the swerve will over cut or hit it fuller just a lil. I do notice aiming higher or lower on the CB accuracy goes up...It's not like I'm missing the ball by diamond, I'm just rattling them not hitting them clean in to the back of the pocket.

I know this is either an alignment issue, crowding the shot line, not clearing my body so I'm steering cue around my hip...or like Dr Dave said a vision thing, it could even be a weak bridge issue..I just know I hate it and it makes me want to kick puppies sometimes:wink:

I guess starting at the base of the cb would be best reference point for center

QUOTE=JoeyA;5153520]I have always cut balls better with a think shaft than a thin shaft. Other players in my area note the same thing. One good local player often switches cues on severe cut shots and uses the thinner shafts to cut balls.

JoeyA

[/QUOTE]

JoeyA · Apr 16, 2015

qbilder said:
I doubt it has much to do with squirt or swerve. Most players quickly & subconsciously adapt to correct. What I would be inclined to believe is that it's the change in diameter not fitting his bridge the way his muscle memory bridged his old shaft. 1.5mm doesn't seem like much on paper, but in a pool players bridge, it's the difference between a pencil & a log.

Maybe, but I think in this particular case squirt and swerve are most likely the problem.

He reports that he doesn't have any problem cutting balls frozen on the rail after I taught him some "perfect aim" by Gene Albrecht. Probably he is correcting his off center cue tip placement.

JoeyA

hang-the-9 · Apr 16, 2015

evis said:
This makes me think why some times I miss those cut shots using center ball with the Z2 shaft, is because the swerve will over cut or hit it fuller just a lil. I do notice aiming higher or lower on the CB accuracy goes up...It's not like I'm missing the ball by diamond, I'm just rattling them not hitting them clean in to the back of the pocket.

I know this is either an alignment issue, crowding the shot line, not clearing my body so I'm steering cue around my hip...or like Dr Dave said a vision thing, it could even be a weak bridge issue..I just know I hate it and it makes me want to kick puppies sometimes:wink:

I guess starting at the base of the cb would be best reference point for center

If you are hitting center, where is that swerve coming from? That should only happen with left/right spin, not center, top or bottom. Unless you are talking about swerve in your stroke.

May times on shots, people just aim at the wrong spot, especially if you hit the point a lot. There is a lot of aiming at the middle of the hole or the back of the pocket where the actuall aim point is a spot on the slate. If you watch a player miss into a rail on a shot, then draw a line from their cue to where they missed, it will very often go right to the back of the pocket middle or to the center of the hole.

Here is what I mean, if you aim the ball to the center of the hole, the object ball edge will pass the point of the pocket, rattling out.
You need to aim at the spot where the opening is closer to the table bed.

HawaiianEye · Apr 16, 2015

qbilder said:
I doubt it has much to do with squirt or swerve. Most players quickly & subconsciously adapt to correct. What I would be inclined to believe is that it's the change in diameter not fitting his bridge the way his muscle memory bridged his old shaft. 1.5mm doesn't seem like much on paper, but in a pool players bridge, it's the difference between a pencil & a log.

You are EXACTLY right.

I have small hands, but I watched Jack Taylor beat the hell out of everybody on a bar table and he used a 14mm cue and helped my fix up a house cue the same as his.

You can debate it, argue it, disagree with it, or whatever you want, but I think a 14mm cue can play just as well as any other cue diameter. I used a 14mm shaft for 40 years before I ever used anything less. Going to a smaller shaft didn't make me play any better, but it made some of my cues more easily sellable, should I decide to get rid of a few.

People will say you can/can't get as much English with a 14mm, but I've had numerous people come up to me and ask what kind of shaft I have because I can get so much on the ball with it.

Some people like Ferraris and some people like Bentleys. I think the 14mm provides a more comfy ride. If you are hitting center ball or near-center on most shots, I think the 14mm has a way better "sweet spot".

I have used a 14mm for so long, that anything below that feels "skinny" and it screws with my closed bridge because it always feels I'm not clamping the cue tight enough.

Aloha.

qbilder · Apr 16, 2015

HawaiianEye said:
You are EXACTLY right.

I have small hands, but I watched Jack Taylor beat the hell out of everybody on a bar table and he used a 14mm cue and helped my fix up a house cue the same as his.

You can debate it, argue it, disagree with it, or whatever you want, but I think a 14mm cue can play just as well as any other cue diameter. I used a 14mm shaft for 40 years before I ever used anything less. Going to a smaller shaft didn't make me play any better, but it made some of my cues more easily sellable, should I decide to get rid of a few.

People will say you can/can't get as much English with a 14mm, but I've had numerous people come up to me and ask what kind of shaft I have because I can get so much on the ball with it.

Some people like Ferraris and some people like Bentleys. I think the 14mm provides a more comfy ride. If you are hitting center ball or near-center on most shots, I think the 14mm has a way better "sweet spot".

I have used a 14mm for so long, that anything below that feels "skinny" and it screws with my closed bridge because it always feels I'm not clamping the cue tight enough.

Aloha.

I have known many players prefer 13.5mm-14mm, and they played great. A wee bit thick for my fingers. I personally prefer just a touch over 13mm. 13.25 begins getting a lil uncomfortable. It's one of the things I realized almost immediately when I began working with cues. A comfortable fit means sooooo much, just like it does with shoes. It's a fact that is so often overlooked & ignored, as everybody is focusing on deflection and taper and brand, etc. Reminds me of kids wearing Air Jordans because they're cool, rather than getting some shoes that actually fit & are comfy. As for spin, what matters most is contact point, regardless of tip size or taper. Of course, this is how I see things. Everybody sees things through their own lens.

JimmyRayK · Apr 16, 2015

Very few pro players are playing with anything close to a 13mm shaft. Most great players are playing with shafts 12.5mm and under. And most of them are LD shafts.

Patrick Johnson · Apr 16, 2015

JimmyRayK said:
Very few pro players are playing with anything close to a 13mm shaft. Most great players are playing with shafts 12.5mm and under. And most of them are LD shafts.

I think it's a natural trend - besides reducing squirt, a thinner tip also facilitates greater tip/CB precision. Of course, any size tip can be used just as precisely; a thinner tip just makes it easier* (and maybe more likely). I'll bet the norm will be 12mm or less eventually - maybe not as small as my 10mm.

pj
chgo

*A thinner tip makes it easier to see precisely where you're hitting the CB (with what part of the tip).

qbilder · Apr 16, 2015

JimmyRayK said:
Very few pro players are playing with anything close to a 13mm shaft. Most great players are playing with shafts 12.5mm and under. And most of them are LD shafts.

I have no idea whether that is true or not, without having surveyed them all. Regardless, it doesn't mean anything except that's the size they are comfortable with & their bridge is conditioned for. Take any top player & have him play with a 13+mm shaft for long enough that his bridge become muscle memory, and he'll have a tough time adjusting back to a thin shaft again. Whether you move up or move down, there's an adjustment to make, which takes some time & frustration.

scsuxci · Apr 16, 2015

JoeyA said:
Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Its all a visual thing. We all see different but with the thinner shaft he might
think he's hitting dead center but in fact he might not be.

HawaiianEye · Apr 16, 2015

scsuxci said:
Its all a visual thing. We all see different but with the thinner shaft he might
think he's hitting dead center but in fact he might not be.

I was thinking something similar. For example on a left cut which requires he hits the right side of the object ball. Maybe he subconsciously uses the left edge of his cue as his aiming guide and the thinner cue is narrower which causes him to hit "inside" instead of center ball. The inside deflects the cue ball out a bit and it causes him to hit thinner.

evis · Apr 17, 2015

There's a flaw some where in the execution of the shot that puts unintentional spin on the ball..

But your totally right I shouldn't get lazy on where I'm trying to pocket the ball.

hang-the-9 said:
If you are hitting center, where is that swerve coming from? That should only happen with left/right spin, not center, top or bottom. Unless you are talking about swerve in your stroke.

May times on shots, people just aim at the wrong spot, especially if you hit the point a lot. There is a lot of aiming at the middle of the hole or the back of the pocket where the actuall aim point is a spot on the slate. If you watch a player miss into a rail on a shot, then draw a line from their cue to where they missed, it will very often go right to the back of the pocket middle or to the center of the hole.

Here is what I mean, if you aim the ball to the center of the hole, the object ball edge will pass the point of the pocket, rattling out.
You need to aim at the spot where the opening is closer to the table bed.

JimmyRayK · Apr 19, 2015

qbilder said:
I have no idea whether that is true or not, without having surveyed them all. Regardless, it doesn't mean anything except that's the size they are comfortable with & their bridge is conditioned for. Take any top player & have him play with a 13+mm shaft for long enough that his bridge become muscle memory, and he'll have a tough time adjusting back to a thin shaft again. Whether you move up or move down, there's an adjustment to make, which takes some time & frustration.

I've never seen you at a pro tournament. I can assure you the large majority of top players are playing with the smaller low deflection shafts. I can't help it you wish they didn't.

qbilder · Apr 19, 2015

JimmyRayK said:
I've never seen you at a pro tournament. I can assure you the large majority of top players are playing with the smaller low deflection shafts. I can't help it you wish they didn't.

You're completely pulling an argument from your ass. Seriously. I'm not really even sure exactly what you're talking about, or why you're taking such an aggressive approach. I said nothing more than the issue he is having could be partially (or fully) due to him having muscle memory issues because of switching to a thinner shaft he hasn't yet adjusted to. I mentioned later that I do know some folks who use larger than normal shafts & they do just fine, and that I believe comfort & fit are critical factors(regardless of shaft). Where exactly do you draw that I wish folks wouldn't use smaller, LD shafts? Being a strong supporter & fan of both OB & Mezz, I promise you never heard any such thing from me. So exactly what is it you want to argue about, and why are you attempting to create one from nothing?

liakos · Apr 19, 2015

JoeyA said:
Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Not sure if anyone else has this kinda aiming thing that I have but,,, here goes

when I get down on a shot with center cue ball, I use the left edge of the cue ball with the left edge ofthe que! You will ask how do I find true center? I get used to that sight and I find my center cue ball.

Now, when I play with a different Que, I "find" my center with a few up/downs and them I'm all set. That being said, the perception of all shots "for me" change when using a different size shaft! Remember, we are all looking for a "picture" that we like when we get down and pull the trigger, so,,,, hey, you never now!

For what it's worth, I've never been able to sight using the middle of the shaft throught the middle of the ball. I have extremely bad eyes, but I wear contacts. Also, I'm right handed and left eye dominate playing pool!

Changing the shaft size can throw the "picture" off causing a miss in my opinion!

JoeyA · Apr 27, 2015

I finally met up with my student and figured out the problem for his misses when using the thin shaft vs the thick shaft.

Interestingly enough, the student missed cut shots with the thick shaft as well as the thin shaft. He had been working on finding the center of the cue ball and for the most part was much better at finding the center of the cue ball.

The culprit turned out to be elbow dropping. As soon as I coached him on how to pay attention to elbow dropping and how to "pin" your elbow, he started making most every cut shot that he had been missing the thinner LD shaft.

Thanks to everyone who wrote and made suggestions.

JoeyA

dr_dave · Apr 27, 2015

JoeyA said:
The culprit turned out to be elbow dropping.

Is it because there was some "chicken wing" motion with the elbow drop? That's a common affliction and one reason why many people prefer keeping their elbow and shoulder still during the stroke.

For those interested in this topic, see the list of disadvantages on the elbow drop resource page.

Regards,
Dave

WHY? Thin shaft VS. Thick Shaft

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