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great match super tuff table
great match super tuff table
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July 20-23 Fight Night 15 & 16 Double Header! Big Table 10 Ball & 9 Ball
- Thread starter Bigtruck
- Start date
easier equipment is an equalizer.
The better player will win more often when the equipment is tough.
But maybe we need to also admit that Oscar and Justin are NOT elite pros.
I think they are both top level pros, but the low break and run percentage shows three things; 1. Conditions are VERY tough. 2. Neither of these player are ELITE BREAKERS. 3. Both players are very conservative. If you been watching the match, these guys don't get over aggressive with run out attempts. Its just not their style. JMO
I have wondered about this for years. It continues to baffle me why there is no standard specs in pool. Most 9' tourneys that I know of these days are played on 4.5" diamonds w/ deep shelves. But many matchups happen on tables with different specs. Why would players even wish to play on equipment that they do not regularly play on? Woulddn't this discourage their regular playing style?
I also disagree that tight pockets favor the better player. It would favor a "shot maker", obviously, but playing pool is more than shot making. Much of its beauty is the patterns, of which less are available on a tighter table. Further, many of the specialty shots to include using force follow are discouraged on a tighter table, which lends itself to a boring event, at least in the opinion of this spectator.
Anyway, just wondering.
These are absolutely NOT elite pros, and it is tables like this that shows people that.
The race to 100 TAR 10-Ball match between Alex and SVB on the Fatboy Rails was played with an EXTREMELY high level of play, with SVB putting two 6-packs on that table and 1 7-pack (actual break and runs).
Dennis and SVB played a 8-ball match on the Fatboy Rails where Dennis never missed a single ball and he never played safe. Every single time he got up to the table he shot and he ran out. The only time he EVER gave up control of the table was on his break.
The actual elite players CAN play on tables like this. It is tables like this that are needed to finally see just who is who in this sport.
Maybe Oscar and Bergman should not be playing on a table like this, but if that is the case it is BECAUSE they are simply not one of the worlds elite.
Personally, I love to see pro pool played on equipment like this for the very reason that we finally get to see just where people stand. Potting balls on a tight table and still managing to play the proper angle or let your stroke out when you need to in order to get shape are the key skills to a elite pool player. SVB did not run a 7-pack in 10-ball on super tight equipment by rolling balls into the hole and playing conservative. He simply adjusted to the table and had the skills to still play the game on that equipment.
Equipment like this shows you who the elite really are. There many players in the world who could play very well on this equipment. You could fill a tournament of 16 with them easy enough, only 1 of those people would be from the USA though.
Only 1 of them would be from the USA? You must be talking about this champion:
Tight tables do not favor the "shooter". It makes some shots virtually unplayable and tends to drive more safety play or balls hung. We have driven equipment to be tighter and all but eliminated the ability to play other games (example 14.1).
They get too tight and then once the slide comes off they become unplayable or the tightness is outside the tolerance of the levelness of table. Most halls use the same cloth for a year or longer. After 3 months every ball down the rail wipes it's feet four times (on tighter Diamonds) or just get's spit out. Worse yet a great hit ball hanging in the pocket and an easy duck for your opponent. You hit the ball like god and get punished. It's gotten out of hand.
Both these guys are Mosconi cup candidates and thus elite pros. Saying otherwise is just silly.
Nick
They get too tight and then once the slide comes off they become unplayable or the tightness is outside the tolerance of the levelness of table. Most halls use the same cloth for a year or longer. After 3 months every ball down the rail wipes it's feet four times (on tighter Diamonds) or just get's spit out. Worse yet a great hit ball hanging in the pocket and an easy duck for your opponent. You hit the ball like god and get punished. It's gotten out of hand.
Both these guys are Mosconi cup candidates and thus elite pros. Saying otherwise is just silly.
Nick
So is there a level higher than elite? Maybe it is semantics that is the issue here.
Because...
Ko Pin Yi
Dennis O
Alex P
SVB
Jun Lin Chang
Darren Appleton
Yu Lung Chang
Neils Feijen
Johann Chua
Carlo Biado
There is a list of a few guys that are "elite" IMO, which to me means they are all bunched up right at the top of the world and are the clear monsters of the sport. They are the "elite" to me.
Oscar D and Justin Bergman are not part of the above group.
Shall I call my list of the pinnacle of the sport "super elites" instead and admit that Oscar and Justin are not quite in that league?
Keep in mind, I am talking about the guys who are all a serious threat to win something like the World 9-ball championships and if they did win it no one would be hugely surprised or consider it an upset.
Elite to me means "top tier professional". They are champion caliber players on the world stage.
In the collective of pool professionals on this planet the "elite" are the best, they stand out relative to the other professional pool players as being a step above.
Brother,
I don't know...maybe say Top 50 in the world? Remember that table is sitting in a pool hall for all to play on (I happen to have hit some balls on it 6 months ago) not a pristine challenge table like TAR. Fresh cloth would be fair test. As it is...not so much. Did you watch the stream? I saw a lot of well hit balls hang.
Nick
its easy to mix words when using terminology in the pool world since there are no exact classifications. I think MOST people agree that these two guys are in the top level of pro players here in the US. that doesn't mean there isn't better, here or abroad. just that on any given day these guys could hang with or beat anybody. I do agree that the tighter pockets show the differences between guys I would consider top level pros and the guys widely considered the best in the world. these differences are often hard to see in short race tournaments or on bucket tables. either way, we have two pretty young guys here who both have a ton of heart, a ton of skill, and like to mix it up.
I guess the thing that bugs me the most is that some folks wish to have a custom table based on whatever pool game they are interested in playing. "Pool" is a collection of cue games, most commonly (in no particular order), the rotation based games, 8 ball, 14.1, onepocket, banks, rotation (the point based one), etc. All of these games need to be played on a standard spec table, imo. Toward that end, it would be folly to have a table tighter that a standard diamond pro for, say 14.1 and banks.
I get that the rotation based games are the most popular amongst players (though onepocket seems to be rising in popularity) and 8 ball remains the choice amongst the rest of the population. But, imo, the beauty of "Pool" remains the diversity of disciplines that can be played ON THE SAME TABLE.
My points are probably moot, however, as many tourneys seem to be held on 3.5 x 7's these days.
The pool tourneys, exhibitions and/or gambling matches that the pool connoisseurs enjoy watching/analyzing/scrutinizing may just go the way of the dodo bird. I hope not, but the trend does not seem to be in our favor.
I guess in order to define "elite" in numeric terms, we would have to determine just how many "Pro" pool players are out there and then agree that only the top however many are considered "elite". You list 10, and 10 seems to represent "elite" in any discipline to me. Hard to argue with those on your top 10 list, btw.
Pocket size is only one way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Longer races get the job done too. Or it could be defined as the repeated victories in a series of short race events. I know that I see many of the same familiar names on the winner boards at the US Open, DCC and elsewhere.
Last year at the Chuck Markulis Memorial Tournament at Hard Times Billiards
The finals were Justin Bergman vs Carlo Biado and Justin won the event. :thumbup:
That match was on a super tight table very similar size pockets to the one the Oscar and Justin are playing on now.
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The play was very similar to Oscar and Justin's match very few break and runs if any, brutal conditions to play on for anybody even for a Elite pro like Carlo Biado. :grin:
The finals were Justin Bergman vs Carlo Biado and Justin won the event. :thumbup:
That match was on a super tight table very similar size pockets to the one the Oscar and Justin are playing on now.
.
The play was very similar to Oscar and Justin's match very few break and runs if any, brutal conditions to play on for anybody even for a Elite pro like Carlo Biado. :grin:
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I find Earl Strickland's view on table difficulty to be interesting.
He feels that real tight pockets are not the answer, as they prevent players from even attempting some difficult shots.
Earl's solution to increasing table difficulty without using real tight pockets is to eliminate the side pockets.
He feels that real tight pockets are not the answer, as they prevent players from even attempting some difficult shots.
Earl's solution to increasing table difficulty without using real tight pockets is to eliminate the side pockets.
Let's not forget when Bergman/Hall beat Feijens/Gray in a mosconi match last year.
But OP will say that's just one match, which will be point proven on both sides of the fence. When your in gear and running balls your play will be different; in my opinion Justin is an elite pro for recognizing how he is playing at the moment, and doing what it takes to win by shooting conservatively.
But OP will say that's just one match, which will be point proven on both sides of the fence. When your in gear and running balls your play will be different; in my opinion Justin is an elite pro for recognizing how he is playing at the moment, and doing what it takes to win by shooting conservatively.
I don't think holding players to the level of Shane & Dennis is fair..... These are two of the baddest men God ever built.
The table may jaw out some balls it should not.
I have always said the Fatboy TAR rails that Glen built were the "perfect" tight pockets for pro pool. They were small pockets, but they did "not" spit out well hit balls. They were very tight and demanding, but when a player hit a ball well the ball went in the hole. This was the case on balls hit from the center of the table or down the rail. There was a tight but fair pocket on any shot as long as the shooter could aim well. You could hit a ball with speed down the rail on the Fatboy rails and if you hit it well it would fall cleanly as it should.
After the Fatboy rails TAR got in new rails that were "supposed" to be the exact same dimensions, I believe they came straight from Diamond. The new tight pockets TAR did "not" play the same as the Fatboy rails. Balls that were well hit would get spat out from time to time, shots down the rail hit with any speed became brutal and the table started to make pros avoid shots.
That has often been the problem with tight pockets. It is not that the pocket size is too tight, it is that the tight pockets are not cut in a way that leads to tight, yet consistent play. We get too much flaring of the pockets, points of the pockets poke out in weird ways, points are not sharp enough and end up with a slightly "rounded" point that makes the pocket spit balls out and play like a pool/snooker hybrid.
For all I know given this table is in Vegas and has tight pockets this IS the more recent TAR rails from Diamond... that right there would be a problem. The rails brought in to replace the Fatboy rails were NOT the same, they did not only play tight, they played inconsistent and spat out certain shots that should go and that the Fatboy rails would have taken.
If anything this just goes to show one of the key issues with pool. It is not only the tightness of pockets, but this sport cannot even make the same 4 1/8th inch pockets on the same type of table play the same when the table manufacturer themselves is trying to copy another custom made set of rails. And those small differences in those two sets of rails lead to BIG differences in the way the table performed.
You look at a guy like Tommy Fleetwood who is ranked 50th on the PGA and you admit he is awesome, but you are well aware if he shoots a 78 at Augusta it does not mean the course is too tough when the guys in the top 10 often manage to win the event with scores significantly under par. There is a big difference between being the 50th best in the world and being in the top 5.
Pool should not be trying to make it so that the Tommy Fleetwood's of the world have a good shot at beating the Rory McElroy's of the world.
The table is not too tough for pro pool, it is simply proving to be too tough for these two players. Augusta is not too tough for pro golf, it is simply too tough for all but the top tier pros to excel.
All of that said, if the table is "gaffy" and the pockets are cut incorrectly and they spit out balls that should be going, that is a different thing.
This "is" the exact same table Alex played Frost on right? I watched that 1 pocket match and there were very few shots I can think of that either Alex or Frost hit where I thought "man, that ball should have dropped".