The unestablished fargo player

BRussell said:

I seriously doubt there are too many people who only play in their basements and don’t play in tournaments and are low to mid 700s. Mid 700 is top 20 in the US lol.

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Yea I don't see many 700s or even 600s that are not known by a good number of players from their state or from watching streams. I don't know of any A player that just shows up after practicing at home for 3 years, but I know plenty of C and B- players that have played for 10,20 years that are still C players because they did not leave the basement. Or even D players that can beat all their friends at the table in their basement but come to one tournament and never show their face again.

BRussell said:

I seriously doubt there are too many people who only play in their basements and don’t play in tournaments and are low to mid 700s. Mid 700 is top 20 in the US lol.

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Well, I may have misused the word "plenty" but..... to LOL right back at yo a55. You can come to my basement (no basement.... lol... but my living/dining room...) each and EVERY Friday night and watch two or three..... hell, sometimes as many as four players beat the living chit out of the 10 ball ghost.

Two of them play in handicapped tournaments (bca) ever now and then. They are put in as a 9 and IMO...their still stealing.

Maybe I'm just assuming to much but, I figured there are others like myself and a few of my friends that dont give a ratz a55 about ego bullshit in tournaments and also dont give a shit about trying to take other people money because we got our own and not from (gambling with lesser players) robbing people either. It's called a damn job and I worked it for a few decades so I wouldn't "have to" hustle (steal).

Think what you want brother. It's still a free (mostly) country..... for now anyways.

On second thought, if your correct.... hell, a couple of my buddies and myself may be an endangered species.

Lol..... I would think not...

How much were the top prizes?

Didn't Kevin Cheng or some Philippine player sign up as an amateur a few yrs ago?

Deleted cause I decided I didn't want to go through a bunch a bs again. Lol

JC said:

https://csibbm.com/Public/PlayerEntry/b47b8a6b-59e2-4e7e-868c-1bad25ec322a

https://ctsondemand.com/TournamentHome.aspx?TournamentID=b47b8a6b-59e2-4e7e-868c-1bad25ec322a



He joined the ranks of fargo recently for whatever reason or whatever he's been doing the last few years he is not yet established. Comes in with a handful of robustness and a starter rating of 601. Someone decided that's how he plays and into the system he goes. I've been about a 600 for several years with a ton of robustness. Again I'm not in Brad's league.

So he wipes out the platinum division after which his games from the event are added to his fargo and viola, 203 game in now and established at 683.

I could cite similar examples from every event in the last few years and will be happy too if there's doubt.


These are not isolated coincidences. They are human errors occurring for whatever reason and they seem to never end.

It's hard to relate in the written word that this doesn't really upset me. I didn't even play in the singles this year. But it does merit discussion.

JC

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Yep, tough to fade playing as an A- player coming up against an A+ even. It may even be higher, 100 points is pretty much a full level difference.

The AZ BCAPL state championships had a player not in the system play at a starter rating of something like 450 perhaps? He cashed in 8ball,9ball,10ball, and 8ball teams. I do not feel it is unreasonable to require all players to be established as a condition of entry. One of my opponents told me he will not be back next year due to the spots he was forced to give to underrated players. He had to travel a large distance to get to the venue as well and now feels it is no longer worth the trip/expense.

JolietJames said:

The AZ BCAPL state championships had a player not in the system play at a starter rating of something like 450 perhaps? He cashed in 8ball,9ball,10ball, and 8ball teams. I do not feel it is unreasonable to require all players to be established as a condition of entry. One of my opponents told me he will not be back next year due to the spots he was forced to give to underrated players. He had to travel a large distance to get to the venue as well and now feels it is no longer worth the trip/expense.

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I know a few very strong players that will not go for that very reason. Some of them are not exactly financially comfortable and can't afford to go "knowing" they are gonna be dead money due to the simple fact:

Sandbagging son of a *****es that play pretty good but not good enough to show up and "man up".

I've been a few times. Never played in the actual tournament but did play in a private match here and there.

There is NOTHING better than the feeling of snapping one off in a sand bagger that thinks he has a big enough edge to pull it off..... nothing better than the feeling of outrunning the nuts.

The next time I go, it will be for that very reason. I'm not the only one that feels that way either.

I know one fellow that's local to the tournaments there.... lol, he ALWAYS has a ball with the lowlife-idiots that try to sneak in. They always sneak in but, after playing him or others like him...lol... they dont sneak out.

I think many of us would like to rely on fargo (or any number of other systems in life) as efficient and reliable, and there's no shame in that.
that said, I think it's only as good a system as the folks participating in it.
personally, I like fargo and try my best every game to play well and get my fargo rating up, but I also know that there are people out there dumping.
as time goes on, I anticipate fargo will continue to solidify its place in the pool world and attract both fans, and critics, but one thing's for sure-
pool is bigger than any one system, and that's ok.

JC said:

https://csibbm.com/Public/PlayerEntry/b47b8a6b-59e2-4e7e-868c-1bad25ec322a

https://ctsondemand.com/TournamentHome.aspx?TournamentID=b47b8a6b-59e2-4e7e-868c-1bad25ec322a

It's all here if you look.

Here is a for instance:

We have a player up here named Brad Gowin. I have never met him but the word is he's a great guy. I have seen him play in the past and I can assure you I will never play as well as he does. Never have and never will. He is well known in the Pacific Northwest for quite some time.

He joined the ranks of fargo recently for whatever reason or whatever he's been doing the last few years he is not yet established. Comes in with a handful of robustness and a starter rating of 601. Someone decided that's how he plays and into the system he goes. I've been about a 600 for several years with a ton of robustness. Again I'm not in Brad's league.

So he wipes out the platinum division after which his games from the event are added to his fargo and viola, 203 game in now and established at 683.

I could cite similar examples from every event in the last few years and will be happy too if there's doubt.


These are not isolated coincidences. They are human errors occurring for whatever reason and they seem to never end.

It's hard to relate in the written word that this doesn't really upset me. I didn't even play in the singles this year. But it does merit discussion.

JC

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Good point about the problem with low starter ratings. Not sure it made a difference in this case since it appears he beat his opponents by more than any possible spot they might have gotten if he were rated 683.

BC21 said:

You are so right! Meanwhile my team is unable to compete in some BCA tournaments because the cap for Fargo ratings is 2900 for the team, which prevents a 5-man team of players rated around 600 from competing. So, doing the math, we'd have to sub in a player rated around 500 or less in order to play as a team. But it's not common to have a 490 or 510 player playing on a team with 600+ rated players.

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The cap at the WBCA 2019 8 Ball was 3050 not 2900.

gypsy_soul said:

Well Fargo , BCA, APA all of it is a joke . Always gonna be that way that's why I don't play any of it ....

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You show 'em, boss!

oneballeddie said:

Good point about the problem with low starter ratings. Not sure it made a difference in this case since it appears he beat his opponents by more than any possible spot they might have gotten if he were rated 683.

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He would have played in the elite division with a rating greater than 625

hang-the-9 said:

Yea I don't see many 700s or even 600s that are not known by a good number of players from their state or from watching streams. I don't know of any A player that just shows up after practicing at home for 3 years, but I know plenty of C and B- players that have played for 10,20 years that are still C players because they did not leave the basement. Or even D players that can beat all their friends at the table in their basement but come to one tournament and never show their face again.

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I agree probably not straight out of their basement although that is where Harold Worst came from. One of the best of all time.

I think it's much more common when someone is far from home and was a known player back home.

I know nothing about these tournaments but why couldn’t they just move all unestablished players up one division from where their fargorate puts them. I’m sure some players are overrated to and this would suck for them. However players would know this before they signed up.

Or just have a tournament and put all unestablished players in it. Make it where the players will want to have an established rating before they get there.

9BallKY said:

I know nothing about these tournaments but why couldn’t they just move all unestablished players up one division from where their fargorate puts them. I’m sure some players are overrated to and this would suck for them. However players would know this before they signed up.

Or just have a tournament and put all unestablished players in it. Make it where the players will want to have an established rating before they get there.

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While this idea makes the most sense in regards to this discussion, CSI has already made way too many divisions. There were 952 players (by my count from CTSondemand website) and 7 divisions at the Western BCA Championships. Theres no money in winning any of these anymore.

This is being turned into a Fargorate issue (not the person I quoted but in general) when it’s a CSI failure. Fargorate works & will continue to work but if you let people in who aren’t established you’re begging for trouble. And, using 1 game samples from league begs for sandbagging. Whilst the LMS website is absolutely awesome it’s a mistake (IMO) to use 1 game samples in Fargorate. If I BNR on SVB is that anymore impressive than against a 450? And vice verse?

sixpack said:

I agree probably not straight out of their basement although that is where Harold Worst came from. One of the best of all time.

I think it's much more common when someone is far from home and was a known player back home.

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Well said.

There have been a couple people to think like hang-the-nine and come to my little get together and leave broke cause as you said .... one of them is from the Philippines. He would be AT LEAST mid 700's but to tell you the truth... lol... he dont even like pocket pool, he's a very, very strong snooker player....very strong. On a pocket table...he runs out like water.

The two other guys I was talking about would rate around low 700's.

It makes for a very STRESSFUL night for me.... that's an understatement since I'm considered the weaker player when their all here.

The Philippino has family members that come over my place probably once a year on average and some of them are strong as hell.

People in the US have NO IDEA how many really, really strong players there are that they have never even heard of.

Lol...... I just let them run their trap and let them believe just because "they" can't get there.... well, I guess 5hat means nobody else can either.

What would benefit them to remember is:

Everyone doesn't really care to get there. Some just like to play occasionally and go home...

jrctherake said:

Well said.

There have been a couple people to think like hang-the-nine and come to my little get together and leave broke cause as you said .... one of them is from the Philippines. He would be AT LEAST mid 700's but to tell you the truth... lol... he dont even like pocket pool, he's a very, very strong snooker player....very strong. On a pocket table...he runs out like water.

The two other guys I was talking about would rate around low 700's.

It makes for a very STRESSFUL night for me.... that's an understatement since I'm considered the weaker player when their all here.

The Philippino has family members that come over my place probably once a year on average and some of them are strong as hell.

People in the US have NO IDEA how many really, really strong players there are that they have never even heard of.

Lol...... I just let them run their trap and let them believe just because "they" can't get there.... well, I guess 5hat means nobody else can either.

What would benefit them to remember is:

Everyone doesn't really care to get there. Some just like to play occasionally and go home...

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Yep. I’ve run into some like that and been trapped myself. . Always fun when it happens I love being surprised like that I just hope it doesn’t hurt the wallet too much. One time I was working on a project with lots of guys from Europe. One played in a “competitive 8-ball league”. As he called it. That has a different meaning in England than here. Lol. My team set me up with a little wager to play him and I was clearly outmatched. Then he and I played doubles against all comers for drinks at the pub we were at and ended up getting our whole team blotto. Great night!

sixpack said:

Yep. I’ve run into some like that and been trapped myself. . Always fun when it happens I love being surprised like that I just hope it doesn’t hurt the wallet too much. One time I was working on a project with lots of guys from Europe. One played in a “competitive 8-ball league”. As he called it. That has a different meaning in England than here. Lol. My team set me up with a little wager to play him and I was clearly outmatched. Then he and I played doubles against all comers for drinks at the pub we were at and ended up getting our whole team blotto. Great night!

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Sounds very familiar to me...lol.

Seriously, I met a Philippino at a local bait shop a few years ago and we started fishing together. Well... lol ... we fished together for at least 6 month (every weekend). Damn could he catch fish when I couldn't even buy one. He grew up helping his dad operate a small fishing business in the Philippines.

Guess what he did as a side job as a child to help make his family extra money? LOL....you guessed it, worked in a billiards room. His passion was 3C and snooker but he said it was easier to make money at pocket billiards so he chose it because he said "it's so easy".... lol.

I didn't even know he knew how to play pool. We were sitting on the river bank and an old friend walked up and started to chat. The old friend ask me if I still hit em and I laughed and said "not touched a cue in 25 years"..... my old friend walked after saying we should play sometimes.

Lol..... hang on: Johhny (Philippino friend), I can't spell his real name...lol... anyways, he ask me about the guy and if he gambled. I said I had no idea but he use to and 5hat he better not play him cause he use to hustle around.

Little did I know..... ok, Johnny said "we should go pool room sometime". Lol... I thought.... why not, I'll show him what I know.

OMG.......OMG....OMG...... the first time I he picked up a stick in front of me it was BNR...BNR....BNR.....etc...etc....

I eventually said "let's play snooker"......uh oh......even worse.....

The freaking guy is a beast and only plays ONE day a week for a couple hours.

Within a couple months I have a 9' diamond pro-am, a new cue and I'm running drills like no tomorrow.

Johnny handed my a55 to me without even trying.

After I thought I was in stroke I called him and ask if he would like to play some. He said sure and ask if a cousin (visiting from homeland) could come with him....I said yep.

You guessed it. They took turns beating the everlasting hell out of me.

Having said all that, keep in mind I can beat the 10 ball ghost in races to 11, 15 and ever now and then can snap off a race to 25, so.... I ain't even close to a chump.

Dont do any good against them though.

So, yeah, as you know there are some CRAZY strong players out there from all over the world that are more-or-less UNKOWN on the US pool scene.