APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

A fair point to be certain, and I have an issue with my LO as well as the way the situation was handled at the tourney.

My main concern honestly is the players on my team who play on 4 different APA teams and center much of their life and friends on this will now be banned for 2 years. A nine ball division could fold, and a few bars locally are going to have their bottom line significantly impacted.

If the APA accepts that there are both cheaters and victims of circumstance that create an 'unfair advantage' which they did in the appeal room stating that they were not accusing my team of cheating several times then why are we being punished the same as the people who get DQ'd because they were clearly cheating the handicaps (SL 3 runs a package)?

b

Tony_in_MD said:

Out of respect for Shawn, I have kept quite throughout this thread.

I was in Vegas during that week, and had a chance to see the team in action.

I saw NO indication of their skill levels being out of line from what I would expect to see from a top flight team in a national tourney.

I saw smart play on their part, and I also saw many of their opponents fold under the pressure of the situation.

For that, they got penalized.

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Good post Tony, And i'd think you would know right away when a "player" is not playing like their HC.

Most of the time at tourney's, you really are not even playing that much better than your normal skill, but the opponent is just dogging their brains out... but that doesn't show up on the score sheet. So, then it shows you "destroyed" someone that missed a few hangars and scratched a few times.

Now that Sean has responded....

I had a great conversation with Sean at the Westgate before any of this happened, as I sweated one of his team's matches. His team was still playing in the Round of 16. Just like the FB message string shows, Sean joined his team specifically because they weren't "managing their handicaps," and that the whole team motto was was to play their best, always.

This also highlights what I've brought up over the last 20 years on 'regional biased' handicap results. Here's a team that plays on tougher bar table equipment in a strong region, only to go to another area with much easier equipment. The whole team plays their heart out, and players get raised. My area in Central Mass years ago, our teams always looked under-rated even at State events, but they were properly rated in North Central Mass.

And Sean explains... he wasn't actually on that particular team's roster (it's a long, very cool story). My team that made it deep into Vegas last year from San Diego, I wasn't on the roster either (for a different reason... I didn't have enough matches in) , and they (my team) were in danger of having more than a couple players go up. And I 100000000% guarantee there was no sandbag in any of these players. They wen't back home and dropped back down after not being able to compete at that higher skill level. If Sean's teammates could still play, I would guess they'd all go back down in skill levels as well.

Freddie <~~~ over-rated

After all of this, I'm surprised that ShortBusRuss hasn't edited the original Thread title.
And....glad I don't play in any handicapped leagues! (I do play in 2 leagues, neither uses handicaps and both are for serious players)

These are just tidbits of my opinion, poorly organized I'm sure, based on what I saw this year and have seen for the past 29 years of APA events.
Playing in the APA national tourney is definitely a sometimes challenging thing to do without having to deal with some stressful situations. It's natural to question your opponents skill levels and also your own teams once you get there and see the competition and how everyone reacts.
There are many different factors in my opinion that make getting hcps close that the APA has to deal with that they can't possibly get right every time. Such as equipment played on while establishing hcps, competition level in your area and each players experiences pool wise. Many people feel the APA is on a witch hunt over sandbaggers but I think the statistics prove otherwise. I believe that in the 8 ball this year there were 700+ teams with only 1 DQ and 500+ teams in 9 ball with only 2DQ'S. As a matter of fact, a team we played claimed to have had 6 players raised during the event. Not surprising having played and won 9 matches or so. Also, from about the 33rd place match on, every table has an observer who scores the match himself and does an evaluation of each player that plays skill set. Which in and of itself is incredibly subjective depending upon the observers skill level.
I feel bad for anyone who ends up in Sean's situation. It would be crazy to not be upset. I'm also sure the APA agonized over the situation because the last thing they want to do as an organization is run off customers.

garczar said:

I'd rather have a root-canal with a butter-knife than play league pool again.

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My dentist uses a cork screw.

jokrswylde said:

I don't know this situation, but surely this is hyperbole. Killing pool? Heck for a large part of the population around here, apa is the only exposure folks get to pool.

I'm sure predator, kami, and all the other companies would hate to see the apa fold up...

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Hyperbole? Try epic understatement. I'm sure for a large part of the population, APA truly is the only exposure folks get to pool. The question is; What type of exposure to pool is that? What would happen if that went away?

Would Predator, Kamui, and others lose a fraction of traction, temporarily? Yes, maybe.

I have a theory as to what would happen if APA went down the drain. I'll save my opinion on that, however.

Sad to hear about Sean and his team in the finals. What's really ironic; is that his team and himself went to Vegas, and probably had to fight through a FLEET of sandbagging teams to get where they were. And APA won't bat an eyelash at those teams. Many will be right back next year. Anyone care to change my mind?

Cornerman said:

Now that Sean has responded....

I had a great conversation with Sean at the Westgate before any of this happened, as I sweated one of his team's matches. His team was still playing in the Round of 16. Just like the FB message string shows, Sean joined his team specifically because they weren't "managing their handicaps," and that the whole team motto was was to play their best, always.

This also highlights what I've brought up over the last 20 years on 'regional biased' handicap results. Here's a team that plays on tougher bar table equipment in a strong region, only to go to another area with much easier equipment. The whole team plays their heart out, and players get raised. My area in Central Mass years ago, our teams always looked under-rated even at State events, but they were properly rated in North Central Mass.

And Sean explains... he wasn't actually on that particular team's roster (it's a long, very cool story). My team that made it deep into Vegas last year from San Diego, I wasn't on the roster either (for a different reason... I didn't have enough matches in) , and they (my team) were in danger of having more than a couple players go up. And I 100000000% guarantee there was no sandbag in any of these players. They wen't back home and dropped back down after not being able to compete at that higher skill level. If Sean's teammates could still play, I would guess they'd all go back down in skill levels as well.

Freddie <~~~ over-rated

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This issue of equipment difficulty absolutely represents one of two huge flaws. In 9-ball, APA's formula for handicapping boils down to the average number of balls made per inning, with accommodation made for the number of defensive shots played. APA attempts to account for variation of difficulty from 7' to 8' to 9' tables, but doesn't factor in that some people might regularly play on tables with extremely tight pockets where others play on tables you could just about pocket a softball...

Another flaw (and this is beyond APA's ability to control) is that even a team that never sandbags can have their handicap reflected at a lower score than it should be if they are in a market where a lot of others are - especially if those sandbaggers are simply playing and failing to mark 'defensive' shots.

On the flip side, APA does acknowledge the fact that many players play better under more intense pressure, and have spent additional time practicing in advance of the national tournament, so does provide a little leeway.As some might play on tables with extremely tight pockets. When they see sufficient change for 5 players to have been flagged to have handicap go up during the tournament, that's a very substantial amount beyond the 2 they normal see as baseline grounds for potential expulsion from the tournament.

My guess is that the team went from playing on more- to less-difficult tables, and that a few of them had likely been adjusted back and forth between a handicap threshold, and had qualified when they were at the lower - it wouldn't take much for them to adjust back up, especially given easier tables.

APA, seeing 5 players marked by their software to adjust upwards in handicap, found itself in a bind. Even if they believed the handicaps were not unreasonable going in, they had to choose between (a) following the expressed 'spirit' of APA, allowing the team to continue on as they were playing in good faith, standing firm against what might be outrage by a lot of other teams that they were allowing so many to have their handicaps adjusted, implying their benefiting early on from unfairly low handicap, or (b) using the available tools to eliminate the team and, while (assuming the team had never sought to manipulate handicap) screwing over one team, ensuring that they didn't face wrath from a much larger group - and using that ban as an ironic selling point that they stand firm for fair play.

In the end it's a business trying to protect their efforts to build a reputation for integrity and fairplay by denying it. They should really get into politics...

Nope considering I saw an APA 4 pull off two stroke shots in a row that would have made SVB proud.

DelawareDogs said:

... Many will be right back next year. Anyone care to change my mind?

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ShortBusRuss said:

OR... it could be that the APA handicap system, by it's very nature, encourages sandbagging? The APA handicap system is built NOT upon making the game approximately equal between two teams, but to break teams up so that that two teams will need to go out and find at least 2 new players.

The APA handicap system is a marketing tool, nothing more. And the problem is.. The system itself encourages teams to sandbag so they can keep their team together so they can enjoy the solidarity of playing with people they enjoy playing with... So when teams goes to Vegas, the APA is forced to take draconian measures so they don't have matches that clearly display how impotent the handicapping system is.

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ShortBusRuss said:

This seems like a good time to start a BCA league in your area and try to make the APA organization pay for their malfeasance monetarily. It doesn't take that many players to change a region. Arvada, Colorado only had about 8 or so BCA teams, and a lot of the people I played with have done VERY well at BCA nationals...

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I wouldn’t agree that you can say the APA encourages sandbagging, but in their system it
does depend on people to be honest and accurate. Pool players by their nature are
noted for being somewhat less than honest, but my thought is that if you only had
pool players there wouldn’t be a problem. Mixed in with the pool players are teachers,
housewives, retirees, students, lawyers, government workers, cops, firemen, dog
groomers, and a whole other assortment of professional types that don’t always
understand about honor in a simple game and how seriously we might take it. Pool
players on their own I don’t think would sandbag, adding people that don’t understand
what this is to most of us just see it as a game and the object is to win, sandbagging or
a little cheating here or there is a small price to pay. Sandbagging isn’t encouraged, but
being an adult is encouraged and for a lot of people it’s a chance to not be an adult.

I don’t know how far back in Denver you go, but maybe you remember the old Western
Billiards, and the CBA. Back when Larry Spasato had Western Billiards (that was the
BCA in Colorado) he had a ton of teams. It’s gone through several changes since then
but I don’t remember it ever being as low as down to single digits in team memberships.
I can’t say for sure but I believe that Colorado has always done fairly well at BCA Nationals

Tony_in_MD said:

As I am quite sure that in their local league, the handicaps were justified, based on the information captured on the score sheet.

Unfortunately the score sheet doesn't show slopped in balls or an opponent that chokes.

Speaking for my team I want to see if the 6 we played from Florida, moved up after hammering our six. That player benefited from over 10 balls crapped in the set.

Also those with Facebook accounts can watch their matches, they live streamed them.

Watch and judge for yourself.

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I’m sure that at the local level skill levels were justified for weekly play, but what I’d also
be sure of is that several players were right on the cusp of the next skill level and could
have been advanced and this would have been justified as well. Playing and winning
almost certainly contributed to the advances in skill level and as they’re evaluated after
each round the advance in Las Vegas is also justified. The onus I would submit is on the
LO and it was to them to have a conversation with Bill and let them know just how close
his players were to the next skill level prior to the NTC

Hits 'em Hard said:

Well you didn’t type out your thoughts very well then. As an ‘honorary’ member, did you ever go into the team/player area? And rules state that if two player get moved up in skill level the team should be disqualified, how did you manage to get 5 players moved up without being disqualified before? Lots of ignoring of the APA rulebook going on here.

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Sounds like the type to refuse to leave your ADT sign to the people who bought your house because they didn't re-up the service.

The thread has swayed me. I already stopped playing apa but was pondering masters. I don't think I want to be involved with a group that panders to the lowest common denom.

I didn't mind that they kept bumping me up so quick since I knew I was a bada$$.... but it did irk me to give 2 and 3 games on the wire in a super short race to someone who wasn't that far below me in actual skill.

Everyone was all about getting their 14 innings or whatever they thought they needed to stay over. It was kinda lame and completely turned me off handicaps of any kind.

DelawareDogs said:

Hyperbole? Try epic understatement. I'm sure for a large part of the population, APA truly is the only exposure folks get to pool. The question is; What type of exposure to pool is that? What would happen if that went away?

Would Predator, Kamui, and others lose a fraction of traction, temporarily? Yes, maybe.

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Epic understatement? Wait. Is that more hyperbole?:grin:

Hey I get what you are saying, but for everyone of the hardcore, old school pool players posting on AZ billiards, there are many APA players out there buying cases, chalk, and cues. We have several Sl 3's in my league playing with revos carried in JB cases. In turn, its easier for those companies to support the pro tourney's.

As far as the handicapping situation, according to my LO, the best way to prevent sandbagging is to mark safeties, or any shot that the shooter didn't make a good faith effort to pocket the ball.

DelawareDogs said:

Hyperbole? Try epic understatement. I'm sure for a large part of the population, APA truly is the only exposure folks get to pool. The question is; What type of exposure to pool is that? What would happen if that went away?

Would Predator, Kamui, and others lose a fraction of traction, temporarily? Yes, maybe.

I have a theory as to what would happen if APA went down the drain. I'll save my opinion on that, however.

Sad to hear about Sean and his team in the finals. What's really ironic; is that his team and himself went to Vegas, and probably had to fight through a FLEET of sandbagging teams to get where they were. And APA won't bat an eyelash at those teams. Many will be right back next year. Anyone care to change my mind?

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I doubt that there’s anything anyone could say that would change your mind.
Wouldn’t you agree that making any attempt would be a waste of time.

his seems like a good time to start a BCA league in your area and try to make the APA organization pay for their malfeasance monetarily. It doesn't take that many players to change a region. Arvada, Colorado only had about 8 or so BCA teams, and a lot of the people I played with have done VERY well at BCA nationals...

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I'm starting to look into this now. There is a fair amount of backlash in our region, all the teams were behind us all the way.

WillyCornbread said:

A fair point to be certain, and I have an issue with my LO as well as the way the situation was handled at the tourney.

My main concern honestly is the players on my team who play on 4 different APA teams and center much of their life and friends on this will now be banned for 2 years. A nine ball division could fold, and a few bars locally are going to have their bottom line significantly impacted.

If the APA accepts that there are both cheaters and victims of circumstance that create an 'unfair advantage' which they did in the appeal room stating that they were not accusing my team of cheating several times then why are we being punished the same as the people who get DQ'd because they were clearly cheating the handicaps (SL 3 runs a package)?

b

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Some teams go there and are consciously subverting the skill level system, other teams
it just happens to, it sounds like your team was a victim of the latter. You all played well
and your LO probably should have taken care to talk with you about raising at least a
couple of your skill levels prior to your trip. As the captain I’m sure you at least had a
feeling that a couple of your players were in danger of moving to the next skill level.
Manipulating handicaps isn’t something you all are guilty of, not being aware of your
players current position is a point of question. The rule doesn’t differentiate, it happens.